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  1. #331
    Incredible Member Timmyb52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raefe Mahadeo View Post
    Reading the equivalent of an extensive political manifesto into a T-shirt about feminism does seem hyperbolic to myself, its less about whether there's a message there and more to do with scale, one line of dialog I dislike generally won't ruin a book for me if I otherwise like it. I'm very familiar with the types of critiques your referring to, what I'm saying is not that there aren't clumsily handled political messages in the books, its hashtag notall and looking to the ones you could enjoy based on the parameters you've set instead of focusing on something you have no interest in reading as the whole picture for Marvels product.
    But it wouldn't be so bad if they weren't doing it so often and in so many books. The T-shirt thing could have easily been over looked as a joke the first time...but when you start using it a second and a third time it begins to look like blatant political messaging IMO.I do agree with you though that not ALL of Marvel's books push a political message...its just so much and so often that it has gotten to be problematic IMO and view of Marvel's current loss in sales and readership.It has also contributed to Marvel's current image problem I think.

  2. #332
    Mighty Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    But it wouldn't be so bad if they weren't doing it so often and in so many books. The T-shirt thing could have easily been over looked as a joke the first time...but when you start using it a second and a third time it begins to look like blatant political messaging IMO.I do agree with you though that not ALL of Marvel's books push a political message...its just so much and so often that it has gotten to be problematic IMO and view of Marvel's current loss in sales and readership.It has also contributed to Marvel's current image problem I think.
    I wonder if it's a bit like that cave in Star Wars; you find what you bring with you.

  3. #333
    Incredible Member Timmyb52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    He says in his post that some see what Marvel are doing and some do not, so he's aware that, depending on how you perceive it, it might not matter a great deal to some like you (or even me)

    It sounds like he watches the likes of Youtubers like ''Diversity and Comics'', ''Captain Cummings'', ''Blah Freaking Blah'' etc, who preach endlessly about the evils of ''SJW Marvel''. I see these guys highlighted on other forums I frequent constantly, usually at the expense of better things to discuss.
    For me it started in noticing the classic heroes being dumbed down for the benefit of the new diversity heroes {such as Peter Parker},and then the strong messaging in regards to Feminism and having the female characters changed from very good looking with figures to man looking with flat chests,no ass,mean looks and short hair cuts...it started to look to me as if Marvel was making the females more manly while making the men more feminine...and I started researching and discovered those Youtube mentioned by Miles. They did not conform my thinking but confirmed my suspicions that I already had guessed at. Marvel is attempting to role reverse the conceptions we readers have in regards to male and female gender roles {identity politics} and push that type of messagind in a way to convert their readership to Wave 3 Feminism,or Radical Feminism.Then after this the Far Left Liberal Anti-Right messaging also became more dominant throughout the books...and louder.
    I'm sorry that these things bother me...but they do and I'm definitely not the only one who feels this way.
    Forums such as this are all about open and honest discussion...and I would like to think we can have these type of discussions as long as we remain respectable towards one another...even when we disagree.

  4. #334
    Incredible Member Timmyb52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    How do we know that? Has Spencer gone on record of that somewhere?

    40778pt2...he also had Hydra Cap give a speech in the recent issue of Captain America # 25 taken from parts of speeches given by Reagan/Bush injected into it...thus again projecting his Hydra/Republicans are evil messaging in the book.
    Has Spencer addressed this anywhere?

    That could very well be, however I think it's worth noting that the Trump election is probably not the root cause of the socio-political controversy and division in the States right now; I think it exacerbated pre-existing problems (kind of a " the world was always broken" thing, to quote Zootopia). So, are we sure that it's specifically about Trump and not just about the larger issues that the current administration factors into?[/QUOTE]



    I was sure that he had mentioned it in an interview he gave on Secret Empire and how he had to wait to see who won in order to create a ending for his book...but truth be told I can't find the reference so that can be disregarded.The speeches highlights reflect certain words and phrases taken from Reagan during the Iran Contra Affair/Terrorism and Bush with the Iraq War {Desert Storm}.In regards to the Trump thing... when you have a large majority of Marvel employees spending a large amount of their time online bitching about Trump {especially Nick Spencer} it kind of appears obvious what Secret Empire's main message is IMHO.Marvel has a very deep seated anger and hatred of Trump which they are not ashamed to admit if you follow any of them on social media.

  5. #335
    Incredible Member Timmyb52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Funny as a Mockinbird T-shirt joke is actually disliked.
    So a female character can not use a funny t-shirt?!
    But say if it was Peter Parker using a funny T-shirt of whatever it was okay?
    This topic in regards of Mockinbird tshirt is surprisng to me because i never thought a gag like this could be viewed as someting controversial.
    What makes any of you so sure that the T-shirt was just a gag? And why does Marvel feel the need to keep repeating this "gag"? Are you and others just assuming it is a "gag" in order to disregard it? Or could it really be an effort to push a political ideology and message?

  6. #336
    Mighty Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    For me it started in noticing the classic heroes being dumbed down for the benefit of the new diversity heroes {such as Peter Parker}...
    In the case of Peter Parker, that franchise is being operated by two different authors; Dan Slott is writing Peter, while Brian Michael Bendis is writing Miles. Both seem to be running their own shows. At any rate, I think the problems with Peter in ASM seem to stem more from Slott's lack of understanding the character and weaknesses as a writer than anything to bolster Miles (and based on Bendis's track record with USM, he didn't dumb down Peter Parker to build Miles as a character).

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    ...and then the strong messaging in regards to Feminism and having the female characters changed from very good looking with figures to man looking with flat chests,no ass,mean looks and short hair cuts...it started to look to me as if Marvel was making the females more manly while making the men more feminine...and I started researching and discovered those Youtube mentioned by Miles. They did not conform my thinking but confirmed my suspicions that I already had guessed at. Marvel is attempting to role reverse the conceptions we readers have in regards to male and female gender roles {identity politics} and push that type of messagind in a way to convert their readership to Wave 3 Feminism,or Radical Feminism.Then after this the Far Left Liberal Anti-Right messaging also became more dominant throughout the books...and louder.
    That's a pretty big leap of reasoning from an art style, esp. with only suspicions and no concrete evidence. I mean, isn't it possible that the YouTubers in this case have fallen into the confirmation bias trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    I'm sorry that these things bother me...but they do and I'm definitely not the only one who feels this way.
    Forums such as this are all about open and honest discussion...and I would like to think we can have these type of discussions as long as we remain respectable towards one another...even when we disagree.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    I was sure that he had mentioned it in an interview he gave on Secret Empire and how he had to wait to see who won in order to create a ending for his book...but truth be told I can't find the reference so that can be disregarded.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    The speeches highlights reflect certain words and phrases taken from Reagan during the Iran Contra Affair/Terrorism and Bush with the Iraq War {Desert Storm}.
    Well, those were instances where Republican political leaders were not at their best, although I think the Iraq War was more of a botched job than anything criminal like Iran Contra (still surprised that Reagan gets a pass for that one).

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    In regards to the Trump thing... when you have a large majority of Marvel employees spending a large amount of their time online bitching about Trump {especially Nick Spencer} it kind of appears obvious what Secret Empire's main message is IMHO.Marvel has a very deep seated anger and hatred of Trump which they are not ashamed to admit if you follow any of them on social media.
    That may or may not be, but, as I kind of alluded to before, it's pretty hard to know for a fact without Spencer outright confirming it. Readers can imprint their own interpretations of fiction (J.R.R. Tolkien's applicability vs. allegory). For example, Horton Hears a Who is often considered a pro-life allegory, while Dr. Seuss maintained that it was a commentary on immediate post-WWII Japan and how the US should treat that nation (I think the pro-life analogy makes a lot more sense, all things considered, but considering that Seuss had anti-Japanese prejudices prior, it's still a noble parable).

    And as far as not liking Trump, that's hardly a rare thing. The president lost the popular vote in the election, has consistently maintained record-low public approval ratings (he's never had them above 50%, as I recall), and has a divisive administration, at best (he's even received some criticism from his own party, of which he is party leader).

    Granted, I'm pretty biased in this regard, given that I thought Trump was an awful choice during the campaign (due to his platform and his complete lack of qualifications for the job) and his career so far leave me convinced that it was a mistake (I still don't agree with his platform and he has not demonstrated much competence in the job, much less the lies and the criminal investigation into the Russia mess he's entangled himself in). However, the point is not liking Trump is not a left-winger-only thing. Heck, I'm not a liberal (I'm a moderate Independent) and I don't like the man.

  7. #337
    Mighty Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    For me it started in noticing the classic heroes being dumbed down for the benefit of the new diversity heroes {such as Peter Parker},and then the strong messaging in regards to Feminism and having the female characters changed from very good looking with figures to man looking with flat chests,no ass,mean looks and short hair cuts...it started to look to me as if Marvel was making the females more manly while making the men more feminine...and I started researching and discovered those Youtube mentioned by Miles. They did not conform my thinking but confirmed my suspicions that I already had guessed at. Marvel is attempting to role reverse the conceptions we readers have in regards to male and female gender roles {identity politics} and push that type of messagind in a way to convert their readership to Wave 3 Feminism,or Radical Feminism.Then after this the Far Left Liberal Anti-Right messaging also became more dominant throughout the books...and louder.
    I'm sorry that these things bother me...but they do and I'm definitely not the only one who feels this way.
    Forums such as this are all about open and honest discussion...and I would like to think we can have these type of discussions as long as we remain respectable towards one another...even when we disagree.
    Fans have been whining about Peter "regressing" and being made to look dumb since the start of Brand New Day, three entire years before Miles was even created. Or does that time frame get ignored because it clashes with your "Extreme Left are ruining my comics."
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  8. #338
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I'm 90% sure the poster is being sarcastic and mocking the anti-SJW crowd.
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The point is that we should hold the people we agree with to a higher standard because we do not think that they have the additional burdens of defending the incorrect views, and have the brainpower to reach the correct conclusions.
    Aren't you missing some quote marks? Or do you possess the TRUTH, when it comes to some issues?

  10. #340
    Mighty Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    and then the strong messaging in regards to Feminism and having the female characters changed from very good looking with figures to man looking with flat chests,no ass,mean looks and short hair cuts...it started to look to me as if Marvel was making the females more manly while making the men more feminine...
    Have you considered that you're the problem? Maybe try being a better person?

  11. #341
    Moderator oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    For me it started in noticing the classic heroes being dumbed down for the benefit of the new diversity heroes {such as Peter Parker},and then the strong messaging in regards to Feminism and having the female characters changed from very good looking with figures to man looking with flat chests,no ass,mean looks and short hair cuts...it started to look to me as if Marvel was making the females more manly while making the men more feminine...and I started researching and discovered those Youtube mentioned by Miles. They did not conform my thinking but confirmed my suspicions that I already had guessed at. Marvel is attempting to role reverse the conceptions we readers have in regards to male and female gender roles {identity politics} and push that type of messagind in a way to convert their readership to Wave 3 Feminism,or Radical Feminism.Then after this the Far Left Liberal Anti-Right messaging also became more dominant throughout the books...and louder.
    I'm sorry that these things bother me...but they do and I'm definitely not the only one who feels this way.
    Forums such as this are all about open and honest discussion...and I would like to think we can have these type of discussions as long as we remain respectable towards one another...even when we disagree.

    Have you ever considered that maybe it was a good thing that Marvel decided to stop drawing their female characters like unrealistic sexual fantasy objects with giant boobs, tiny waists and a round ass? I am genuinely curious what you consider to be a good role model for the young women in your life.
    I miss Kevin Nichols. Not as much as bacon, but still...

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Have you ever considered that maybe it was a good thing that Marvel decided to stop drawing their female characters like unrealistic sexual fantasy objects with giant boobs, tiny waists and a round ass?
    As far as I can see, they still draw their male characters as sex objects. You may not appreciate that, but is there.

  13. #343
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nose norton View Post
    As far as I can see, they still draw their male characters as sex objects. You may not appreciate that, but is there.
    Eh, the male equivalent of the 90's cheescakery of female characters is if male superheroes look like art by Tom of Finland. Which Marvel superheroes definitely do NOT!

  14. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by nose norton View Post
    Aren't you missing some quote marks? Or do you possess the TRUTH, when it comes to some issues?
    I said we think we know the truth, not that we know it for sure.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  15. #345

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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Eh, the male equivalent of the 90's cheescakery of female characters is if male superheroes look like art by Tom of Finland. Which Marvel superheroes definitely do NOT!
    There was a cartoon about this a while back.

    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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