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  1. #91
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Again, why is it not that people eat up his storytelling because people like his storytelling? Why does it have to be that there's some theoretical blind loyalty going on across the board? You and others not liking his style doesn't mean those who do like it out of some other obligation. If you were really fine with the fact that it sold well and was critically well-received, I can't imagine why you go out of your way every time the run comes up to make a general sweeping statement that its only well regarded because [insert convenient, dismissive excuse here]. To the contrary it sounds more like the argument of someone very uncomfortable with the fact in more circles than not, its quite well-received.

    And just for the record I don't love everything he's done. I thought Final Crisis fell apart at the midpoint, I didn't like most of his Batman ideas, and one of his most acclaimed runs ever in JLA I haven't even ever read in totality. I liked his Action run because to me and so many others it was quite simply very, very Superman.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-08-2017 at 10:19 PM.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    What didn't you understand about it? I'm not trying to start a fight haha I'm just curious. Like I said before, sometimes he's all over the place and monthly it can be tough to read if you read a lot of books. When Final Crisis came out I remember having issues with it until I read it as one piece.
    Morrison's Action run basically shows that he has some sort of aversion to linear storytelling and concepts that aren't abhorrently obtuse. Take the first arc for example. The story itself doesn't seem to unfold in a comprehensible fashion. I mean, for real, what was the point of the interlude of issue 6 with the K-Men and the Legion? It really didn't have anything to do with the origin story that had been playing out for the previous five issues and just made things all the more confusing. And that final fight with Brainiac was so scattered that I had to reread the panels 4 to 5 times just to get a handle on what happened.

    That theme of "so confusing, its brilliant" or "things just happen with no context or buildup or foreshadowing" continued on into later issues, especially the Vyn arc.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-08-2017 at 10:35 PM.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Again, why is it not that people eat up his storytelling because people like his storytelling? Why does it have to be that there's some theoretical blind loyalty going on across the board? You and others not liking his style doesn't mean those who do like it out of some other obligation. If you were really fine with the fact that it sold well and was critically well-received, I can't imagine why you go out of your way every time the run comes up to make a general sweeping statement that its only well regarded because [insert convenient, dismissive excuse here]. To the contrary it sounds more like the argument of someone very uncomfortable with the fact in more circles than not, its quite well-received.

    And just for the record I don't love everything he's done. I thought Final Crisis fell apart at the midpoint, I didn't like most of his Batman ideas, and one of his most acclaimed runs ever in JLA I haven't even ever read in totality. I liked his Action run because to me and so many others it was quite simply very, very Superman.
    I never said they felt obligated, but yes, many Morrison fans hold up anything he does as the "most brilliant thing ever" and don't take criticism of his work that well.

    Morrison works best when he tones down his general weirdness. There's a limit to how obtuse a concept can be. And stories should generally try and follow a linear pattern where scenes follow one from the other naturally instead of the narrative being all over the place. Morrison's Doom Patrol and JLA are good because he restrains himself. Final Crisis and his Action run are a mess because he doesn't.

    But anyway, we're getting off topic.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-08-2017 at 10:36 PM.
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  4. #94
    Incredible Member a moment closer's Avatar
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    In twenty years I'll be 56. I don't know if I will be buying comics for the next 20 years but I can tell you that I will remember the New 52. The first DC comics I bought were part of the New 52 initiative and here I am 6 years later still buying DC comics. I had read some pre-Flashpoint stories that I checked out from the library and liked them a lot. At the time I didn't appreciate the legacy characters and family dynamics of a lot of the DC characters. Since the New 52, I haven't read any of the older stories but I've bought quite a few trades in the last two years. Most of them being Green Lantern and Batman related since they didn't receive such a hard reboot post-Flashpoint. Anyway, the New 52 for me isn't over, it has just evolved. Sure we've had other initiatives like DCYou and Rebirth but they are still building on the universe I've been reading since day one. Incorporating elements, from before Flashpoint, I didn't know even existed seems natural and new to me. I'm sure many of the fans that became readers during the same time, or after feel the same way. It will be remembered. I will remember it very fondly. I will also remember the controversy surrounding the reboot. The fear that Marvel would follow suit. The years of outspoken anger that the older existing fans held onto while I enjoyed the new universe DC created. And mostly, I'll remember that it was a necessary move for the overall success of the publishing line.

  5. #95
    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Morrison's Action run basically shows that he has some sort of aversion to linear storytelling and concepts that aren't abhorrently obtuse. Take the first arc for example. The story itself doesn't seem to unfold in a comprehensible fashion. I mean, for real, what was the point of the interlude of issue 6 with the K-Men and the Legion? It really didn't have anything to do with the origin story that had been playing out for the previous five issues and just made things all the more confusing. And that final fight with Brainiac was so scattered that I had to reread the panels 4 to 5 times just to get a handle on what happened.

    That theme of "so confusing, its brilliant" or "things just happen with no context or buildup or foreshadowing" continued on into later issues, especially the Vyn arc.
    But the stuff that shows up with no context in the Vyn arc has context because we had a little detour with the legion story. Now I'm confusing myself...

    I'm joking around but we really are getting off topic... Your personal criticisms are fine. Everyone has what they like and don't like. It's just you can't say people only like his Action book because they're afraid of saying he's done bad work. It's kind of insulting.

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by regg215 View Post
    I think that the majority of the feelings that people have towards the new 52 are based on how you felt about dc before the new 52. For me the new 52 reinvigorated me as a DC fan, before the new 52 I was only reading batman books that featured bruce, superman and green arrow ( as well as anything that included the new gods which was really rare to find). When the new 52 launched it got me interested in flash, aquaman, wonder woman, red hood, deathstroke, cyborg and green lantern. New 52 may not have been perfect portrayals of the characters but since the new 52 got me interested in those characters I continue to buy those books today. Most people seem to act like pre new 52 dc was perfect but from what I remember plenty of people were complaining then too. New 52 was by no means perfect but if wasn't a disaster like Heroes Reborn was for marvel.

    Honestly the hard truth is that comics are a medium that will never please all the fans because there is always something that angers people because we want different things out of the same characters. I mean for example a character like Batman has so many different portrayals that it is almost impossible to please all fans because for one fan batman should be like the adam west version, others prefer something closer to the keaton version or the conroy version, its all the same character but those are all so different that it would be impossible to have a portrayal of batman that fits all of those personas, the same can be said of Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash etc..

    That's a good way of putting things in perspective.
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  7. #97
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    There were great runs sure but the initiative as a whole is certainly a failure creatively. The ideas were there but the lack of planning and continously changing things for the heck of it were a turn off.

  8. #98
    Maintaining Status Q _Feely_'s Avatar
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    Just to be contradictory of sorts -

    Joe the Barbarian isn't that great.

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Actually, yes, it is. Harry Potter, like DC Comics, is a multimillion dollar franchise that has built up an entire universe of characters, with books, movies, plays, video games, and all sorts of media. And they're even now building up a second major franchise out of the same universe with the Fantastic Beasts series. And, yes, it has been subject to reimagining. After all, were the movies a complete 1-to-1, copy-paste adaptation of the books? No, they weren't. So, yes, it is instructive that the continuity of the books has never been altered or changed.

    But, if you want a franchise that's more on the nose, you don't have to look farther than DC's biggest competitor. So the idea that a franchise of ongoing books with multiple writers has to reboot its universe is complete bunk.

    The films are not a perfect adaptation of the books, but they tell the exact same story with the exact same characters and end on the exact same note. It's one story told across two different mediums. That is not the case with the various DC adaptations and the at times radical changes it has made

    - Supergirl is Kara In-Ze, not Kara Zor-El, is not Clark's cousin, and is the last survivor of the planet Argo, not Argo City.
    - Wally West is a police scientist and the only person to be known as the Flash, with no friendship with Dick Grayson in sight.
    - There is only one Clayface and he is actor Matt Hagen
    - Wonder Woman makes her debut during World War I.
    - Diana is trained by her aunt Antiope (not the case in any comic)
    - The Penguin is a deformed freak abandoned in the sewers
    - Superboy and Miss Martian are part of Dick Grayson's generation, and dating each other
    - Artemis Crock is a sidekick of Green Arrow and dates Wally West
    - Superman debuts after Batman is in his 40s and gone off the deep end, and gone through two Robins
    - Barbara Minerva is a scientist researching gene splicing and becomes the Cheetah through science instead of a ritual
    - Priscilla Rich is the Cheetah and hanging out with the Legion of Doom
    - Kyle Rayner gets his ring from a dying Abin-Sur and has brown hair

    And so forth. Until Ron and Hermione get a name change, one of them is a couple years younger than Harry, or have very different backgrounds and arcs, the comparison is still lacking.

    Marvel has it's own share of problems. Their reluctance to fully reboot but still not wanting their characters to advance is how you get Spider-Man selling his marriage to the devil. What do they have to offer exactly?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I honestly can't tell if this is serious. How many people were livid with DC comics when the New 52 came around because characters like Cass Cain, and Stephanie Brown and Wally West and pretty much every DC legacy character were MIA? How much backlash did DC experience after they brought back some of these characters in dramatically changed fashion?
    Those fans were loud and made sure everyone knew they were pissed at every opportunity. I don't know if they represent what the majority is fine with though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Because it actually preserves character development and the elements of the franchise that fans like. Its really not that much of a mystery.
    But if the character development and significant developments get reversed anyway, what difference does it make? The in-universe soft reboots are often dumber. Death is cheap and the timeline needs to be crunched, some characters act OOC, etc. Why is that better?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Morrison's Action really wasn't that good. People only give it a lot of deference because its Morrison, but I read the whole thing and it read to me as a real cluster-f***.

    And, again, most people like the long and storied history of these characters. In many cases, that's what drew them to comics in the first place.
    I'm sorry, but using your personal view of how you think people respond to Morrison's work reeks of avoiding the reality that the reboot was (at least initially) successful. In fact, aside from his marriage, I struggle to think of what Superman lost exactly. The World's Finest friendship was still there, the supporting cast was still there, his villains were still there, Supergirl was still his cousin. It actually honored the dense history of Superman more than the pre-Flashpoint comics did because it brought back some old characters: George Taylor, Dr. Xa-Du, Susie Thompkins.

    The Flashpoint may have ditched the history that came before it...but post Crisis ditched the history that came before it as well. We were not dealing with one history organically built up since 1939. That history ended in 1986. The post-Crisis canon doesn't necessarily deserve special treatment just because some people liked it more.

  10. #100
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The Flashpoint may have ditched the history that came before it...but post Crisis ditched the history that came before it as well. We were not dealing with one history organically built up since 1939. That history ended in 1986. The post-Crisis canon doesn't necessarily deserve special treatment just because some people liked it more.
    100% agree.

    BTW, I keep hearing that the DCU brought back a lot of Silver/Bronze Age characters and events. Let's ignore the fact that they weren't exactly the same way as they were pre-COIE for the time being: how many pre-COIE things came back during the first 5 years (roughly the length of the New 52) of the DCU? How many DCU things came back during the New 52? That way, we can compare those eras fairly in regard to bringing back stuff.
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  11. #101
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The Flashpoint may have ditched the history that came before it...but post Crisis ditched the history that came before it as well. We were not dealing with one history organically built up since 1939. That history ended in 1986. The post-Crisis canon doesn't necessarily deserve special treatment just because some people liked it more.
    Concur wholeheartedly.

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  12. #102
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Many people have mentioned that one of the New Fifty Two's flaws is that it didn't retell the DC Universe from the very beginning, but I disagree, I don't want to see another origin story for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern Etc.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Many people have mentioned that one of the New Fifty Two's flaws is that it didn't retell the DC Universe from the very beginning, but I disagree, I don't want to see another origin story for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern Etc.
    You can't have that both ways. If it's a whole new Universe, then the status quo has to be established. Otherwise, your stories have no impact. A prime example is the last big Superman arc before Rebirth, "Truth." Lois Lane outing Superman's secret identity to the world should have been a major story, but it wasn't - and the reason why is that the New 52 versions of the characters hadn't built up enough of a history with each other. It was trying to use reader knowledge of prior versions of the characters to evoke emotion, and it failed.

    New 52 was trying to have its cake (a whole new universe) and eat it too (the amorphous "five-year timeline" where they could decide later if they wanted to reintroduce a classic story). That refusal to fully commit to starting at the beginning again is the clearest sign that it was only done as a sales gimmick, and that's how it's going to be remembered.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The films are not a perfect adaptation of the books, but they tell the exact same story with the exact same characters and end on the exact same note. It's one story told across two different mediums. That is not the case with the various DC adaptations and the at times radical changes it has made

    - Supergirl is Kara In-Ze, not Kara Zor-El, is not Clark's cousin, and is the last survivor of the planet Argo, not Argo City.
    - Wally West is a police scientist and the only person to be known as the Flash, with no friendship with Dick Grayson in sight.
    - There is only one Clayface and he is actor Matt Hagen
    - Wonder Woman makes her debut during World War I.
    - Diana is trained by her aunt Antiope (not the case in any comic)
    - The Penguin is a deformed freak abandoned in the sewers
    - Superboy and Miss Martian are part of Dick Grayson's generation, and dating each other
    - Artemis Crock is a sidekick of Green Arrow and dates Wally West
    - Superman debuts after Batman is in his 40s and gone off the deep end, and gone through two Robins
    - Barbara Minerva is a scientist researching gene splicing and becomes the Cheetah through science instead of a ritual
    - Priscilla Rich is the Cheetah and hanging out with the Legion of Doom
    - Kyle Rayner gets his ring from a dying Abin-Sur and has brown hair

    And so forth. Until Ron and Hermione get a name change, one of them is a couple years younger than Harry, or have very different backgrounds and arcs, the comparison is still lacking.

    Marvel has it's own share of problems. Their reluctance to fully reboot but still not wanting their characters to advance is how you get Spider-Man selling his marriage to the devil. What do they have to offer exactly?
    Actually, entire characters and events that were present in the books were erased entirely from the movies. Its the same way for any of those big franchises that juggle multiple continuities: Twilight, Hunger Games, Power Rangers, Star Trek, etc. Difference is, with each of these, the different continuities run parallel to each other, they don't replace one another. Even in the example you provided, the continuity of the JLU universe didn't replace the continuity of the comics. Just like when the YJ series came in 2010, that that continuity didn't replace the JLU continuity or the comics continuity. All of those continuities existed on separate universes, one never supplanting the other. And that's how it is for all of those franchises. So, its entirely different from something like the N52 which then came along and DID supplant previous canon.

    And again, you still have Marvel characters who've also gone through just as many re-imaginings as DC characters, and yet, their universe has never been rebooted. And no, things like Spider-Man: OMD don't count because they did not change nearly as much as Flashpoint did.

    Those fans were loud and made sure everyone knew they were pissed at every opportunity. I don't know if they represent what the majority is fine with though.
    If you want to characterize them as simply "a pissed off minority," that's fine. But ask yourself if DC would bring back the Wally West that people knew even after introducing NuWally if they only saw those fans as a vocal minority? Would they have done this whole Rebirth initiative if it was just a minority of fans. Don't forget that the New 52 was leading to

    But if the character development and significant developments get reversed anyway, what difference does it make? The in-universe soft reboots are often dumber. Death is cheap and the timeline needs to be crunched, some characters act OOC, etc. Why is that better?
    Because the characters remember those developments and a lot of those developments do stick. Last I checked, Gwen Stacy wasn't alive and well in the Spider-Man comics. And not only that, but a lot of those developments end up being definitive for the characters. Would Jason Todd be the same person he is today if him dying at the hands of the Joker and being resurrected by the al Ghuls never happened? I don't think so.

    I'm sorry, but using your personal view of how you think people respond to Morrison's work reeks of avoiding the reality that the reboot was (at least initially) successful. In fact, aside from his marriage, I struggle to think of what Superman lost exactly. The World's Finest friendship was still there, the supporting cast was still there, his villains were still there, Supergirl was still his cousin.
    The supporting cast was still there? His parents were both dead, Conner had had his whole bond with Superman erased, his entire friendship with Steel had been erased, Natasha Irons, Emil Hamilton, Bibbo Bibbowski, Dan Turpin, and several other characters were nowhere to be seen.

    The World's Finest friendship was not there. Batman and Superman were practically strangers.

    And his villains were not still there. What about Manchester Black (erased)? Or Hank Henshaw (entire villainous history erased)? Or Imperiex (erased)? Or Silver Banshee (who's entire villainous history had been erased and who was now a supporting character of Supergirl)?

    And the reboot was so "successful" that almost every reviewer panned the New 52 status quo and less than 5 years in, DC had to kill off N52 Superman and replace him with a version that everyone liked better.

    It actually honored the dense history of Superman more than the pre-Flashpoint comics did because it brought back some old characters: George Taylor, Dr. Xa-Du, Susie Thompkins.
    You mean it brought back new versions of them that in reality had none of the actual history with Superman that they did before. Honoring that history would have required bringing back the real George Taylor or the real Susie Thompkins who actually were in the GA comics. And even then, it wouldn't be enough to replace all that was lost.

    The Flashpoint may have ditched the history that came before it...but post Crisis ditched the history that came before it as well. We were not dealing with one history organically built up since 1939. That history ended in 1986. The post-Crisis canon doesn't necessarily deserve special treatment just because some people liked it more.
    I've said this before, but you do know that Crisis didn't get rid of nearly the amount of stuff that New 52 got rid of, right? A lot of the Pre-Crisis continuity continued on after Crisis: the Titans, the JLA (which even made reference to Pre-Crisis JL stories), Flash (which continued with Wally assuming the mantle after Barry's death), Green Lantern, Batman (which saw Jason Todd still as Robin and Dick also having still graduated to Nigthwing), etc. Pretty much the only two franchises that saw a HARD reboot with Crisis were Superman and Wonder Woman. And even those reboots were undone with later events like Infinite Crisis. Contrast that with the New 52, where pretty much everything else besides two franchises (Green Lantern and Batman) saw complete and hard reboots.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-10-2017 at 06:01 PM.
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  15. #105
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And again, you still have Marvel characters who've also gone through just as many re-imaginings as DC characters, and yet, their universe has never been rebooted. And no, things like Spider-Man: OMD don't count because they did not change nearly as much as Flashpoint did.
    Many of the stories from the married era no longer work because they are not in canon anymore. One of my favorite Spidey runs, Dematteis's, is no longer canon. I'd rather let the real Peter's story come to a natural and respectful close than have his character ruined and sell his marriage to the Devil. That's shitting on all the stories that came before way more than Flashpoint did for a lot of the properties, at least Superman didn't sell his marriage to Neron.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Because the characters remember those developments and a lot of those developments do stick. Last I checked, Gwen Stacy wasn't alive and well in the Spider-Man comics. And not only that, but a lot of those developments end up being definitive for the characters. Would Jason Todd be the same person he is today if him dying at the hands of the Joker and being resurrected by the al Ghuls never happened? I don't think so.
    Who says that version of Spider-Man would ever need to forget about what happened to Gwen? That version ends, and who says Gwen is doomed to get killed in every version of the story she appears in?



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The supporting cast was still there? His parents were both dead, Conner had had his whole bond with Superman erased, his entire friendship with Steel had been erased, Natasha Irons, Emil Hamilton, Bibbo Bibbowski, Dan Turpin, and several other characters were nowhere to be seen.

    The World's Finest friendship was not there. Batman and Superman were practically strangers.

    And his villains were not still there. What about Manchester Black (erased)? Or Hank Henshaw (entire villainous history erased)? Or Imperiex (erased)? Or Silver Banshee (who's entire villainous history had been erased and who was now a supporting character of Supergirl)?
    Were those characters constantly around anyway in pre-Flashpoint comics? There was absolutely nothing in the setup of the New 52 that precluded any of those characters from existing. Steel was right there in the first arc. Superman and Batman had the same uneasy alliance that was clearly heading towards a bromance that they've always had.

    Superman had only two major things happen all throughout the post-Crisis era. He got married and got punched to death by a stupid looking bone monster, and then he got better because death is meaningless. Otherwise, his core supporting cast and villains were around doing the same things they'd more or less been doing since the Silver Age, and the others could re-appear with minimal difficulty. They were just no longer bogged down by countless stories most people haven't read.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    You mean it brought back versions of them that in reality had none of the actual history with Superman that they did before. Honoring that history would have required bringing back the real George Taylor or the real Susie Thompkins.
    You mean the real versions of the characters that were erased by Crisis on Infinite Earths?

    They weren't included in the history you are upset was thrown out. The history that they were a part of ended in 1986. This was honoring them more than tossing them out to make way for Byrne's bland reboot.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I've said this before, but you do know that Crisis didn't get rid of nearly the amount of stuff that New 52 got rid of, right? A lot of the Pre-Crisis continuity continued on after Crisis: the Titans, the JLA (which even made reference to Pre-Crisis JL stories), Flash (which continued with Wally assuming the mantle after Barry's death), Green Lantern, Batman (which saw Jason Todd still as Robin and Dick also having still graduated to Nigthwing), etc. Pretty much the only two franchises that saw a HARD reboot with Crisis were Superman and Wonder Woman. And even those reboots were undone with later events like Infinite Crisis. Contrast that with the New 52, where pretty much everything else besides two franchises (Green Lantern and Batman) saw complete and hard reboots.
    The Titans, specifically Donna Troy, pokes a big hole in your point. Huge chunks of Donna's Titans stories no longer worked after the Crisis, because her connections to Wonder Woman, the Amazons and the Gods were severed. The JLA made references to Pre-Crisis stories, but said stories featured Diana being a founding member whereas her post-Crisis self never met Barry Allen. Jason Todd had black hair and was a street kid now whose dad was killed by Two-Face instead of a red head circus brat whose parents were killed by Killer Croc. Wonder Woman and Superman getting some stuff back post-Infinite Crisis didn't help because the stories were still a mess: Steve Trevor was still an old man, and most of her villains had never encountered her in post-Crisis canon before being slammed back into things. Bruce Wayne was raised by Alfred after his parents were killed instead of Phillip Wayne, and the killer of the Waynes wasn't known. Dick didn't get Nightwing from Clark using the identity in the Bottle City of Kandor. The Legion had no history with Superboy, but we were still expected to think those stories were the same.

    It's too late to complain about DC rebooting, because they should not have done it the first time. Had they not only focused on Superman and Wonder Woman, maybe they wouldn't be tempted to hit the big red reboot button for those two, to their detriment. This wishy washy in between crap had precedent with Crisis, and it always leads to poor, chaotic results.

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