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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I've said this before, but you do know that Crisis didn't get rid of nearly the amount of stuff that New 52 got rid of, right? A lot of the Pre-Crisis continuity continued on after Crisis: the Titans, the JLA (which even made reference to Pre-Crisis JL stories), Flash (which continued with Wally assuming the mantle after Barry's death), Green Lantern, Batman (which saw Jason Todd still as Robin and Dick also having still graduated to Nigthwing), etc. Pretty much the only two franchises that saw a HARD reboot with Crisis were Superman and Wonder Woman. And even those reboots were undone with later events like Infinite Crisis. Contrast that with the New 52, where pretty much everything else besides two franchises (Green Lantern and Batman) saw complete and hard reboots.
    SiegePerilous02 already did an excellent job addressing these points in his response, but I would like to add the remark that the Superman and Wonder Woman franchises are such major cogs in the overall DC machine that any significant changes to either (let alone both) of them is going to entail a MAJOR domino effect across other related franchises: at the very least, the JUSTICE LEAGUE, TEEN TITANS, and LEGION OF SUPERHEROES franchises will be deeply affected, and you'll have comparatively lesser (but nevertheless present) fallout with other characters associated with those three franchises (e.g. Green Lantern, Flash, Robin, etc.).

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  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Many of the stories from the married era no longer work because they are not in canon anymore. One of my favorite Spidey runs, Dematteis's, is no longer canon. I'd rather let the real Peter's story come to a natural and respectful close than have his character ruined and sell his marriage to the Devil. That's shitting on all the stories that came before way more than Flashpoint did for a lot of the properties, at least Superman didn't sell his marriage to Neron.
    Marvel pretty much went out of their way to say that the stories from the married era of Spider-Man still did happen. They straight up said that Peter and MJ were still a couple for the purposes of all of the stories over the past 20 years, but that they just hadn't been married.

    So, to get this straight, OMD doesn’t actually negate the previous 20 years of Spider-Man stories?

    Exactly, that’s precisely what we wanted to avoid. What didn’t occur was the marriage. Peter and MJ were together, they loved each other — they just didn’t pull the trigger on the wedding day. All the books count, all the stories count — except in the minds of the people within the Marvel U, Peter and MJ were a couple, not a married couple. To me, that’s a much fairer thing to do to those of us who have been reading Spider-Man for all these years. Like I said, is it perfect? No. As far as we investigated, short of divorcing Peter, nothing really is.
    And while that is frustrating and does make certain stories harder to work in, its still leagues better than what DC did with the New 52.

    Who says that version of Spider-Man would ever need to forget about what happened to Gwen? That version ends, and who says Gwen is doomed to get killed in every version of the story she appears in?
    You do realize that's the point, don't you? Most readers don't want a new version of Spider-Man. They want the Spider-Man they're reading currently in the main Marvel Universe to be the same guy they've read since the 60s. The same guy who went through all of the famous Spider-Man stories that shaped the mythology.

    Were those characters constantly around anyway in pre-Flashpoint comics?
    Yes. They were. Many of them were a continuous presence in Superman comics up until like a year or two before the reboot.

    There was absolutely nothing in the setup of the New 52 that precluded any of those characters from existing.
    And yet, they didn't.

    Steel was right there in the first arc.
    Again, with his entire history of friendship with Superman erased.

    Superman and Batman had the same uneasy alliance that was clearly heading towards a bromance that they've always had.
    The point is that they already had their bromance established. So, why regress that character development just to retell it.....again. You realize you're advocating for rehashing old story ideas, right? Shouldn't DC strive to tell actual original content? I don't need to read about Batman and Superman coming to trust each other...again. I've already read that.

    Superman had only two major things happen all throughout the post-Crisis era. He got married and got punched to death by a stupid looking bone monster, and then he got better because death is meaningless.
    And that "meaningless death" is regarded as pretty much the most definitive Superman story of all time. And it even impacts the stories that are being told today. You read the Doomsday arc of Rebirth Action Comics recently? Or even any Green Lantern story where Parallax pops up? You realize that whole addition to the GL mythos was tied directly to the Reign of the Supermen story, right?

    Otherwise, his core supporting cast and villains were around doing the same things they'd more or less been doing since the Silver Age, and the others could re-appear with minimal difficulty.
    Really? Was Lois still his wife, privy to his secret identity? Nope. Was Steve Lombard working at the Daily Planet? Nope. Was Pete Ross there at all? Uh, nope. So, no, Superman's supporting cast were not "doing the same things they'd more or less been doing since the Silver Age."

    They were just no longer bogged down by countless stories most people haven't read.
    Really? Are you stating that from an actual statistic or from your own personal experience? I'd say a good amount of people who read Superman currently have probably been reading him for years. You do know that surveys and research shows that the New 52 really didn't bring in many new readers at all, right? 95% of the DC readership from after Flashpoint had already been reading DC before Flashpoint. Only 5% were actually new to DC Comics.

    You mean the real versions of the characters that were erased by Crisis on Infinite Earths?

    They weren't included in the history you are upset was thrown out. The history that they were a part of ended in 1986. This was honoring them more than tossing them out to make way for Byrne's bland reboot.
    I feel like I have to point this out: you do know that much of COIE was already undone by the time Flashpoint rolled around, right? Infinite Crisis and many events after that had already established that much of the erasure that took place in 1986 was already null and void.

    So, nothing really precluded these characters from existing.

    The Titans, specifically Donna Troy, pokes a big hole in your point. Huge chunks of Donna's Titans stories no longer worked after the Crisis, because her connections to Wonder Woman, the Amazons and the Gods were severed.
    And yet, the Titans comics still carried on as if nothing had happened and maintained the Titans continuity and that Donna was a member of the team. And, again, Wonder Woman's history with the JLA was restored after Infinite Crisis anyway.

    The JLA made references to Pre-Crisis stories, but said stories featured Diana being a founding member whereas her post-Crisis self never met Barry Allen.
    Again, all of those stories were added back in to continuity after Infinite Crisis. So, tell me, why was it necessary then throw it all away again?

    Jason Todd had black hair and was a street kid now whose dad was killed by Two-Face instead of a red head circus brat whose parents were killed by Killer Croc.
    He received that new origin retroactively, as in it didn't erase the other Batman stories in which he had played a part. DC didn't say "he was never Robin and we're reintroducing the character in the present." No, Jason had still assumed the Robin identity and was a part of the Bat-family much like he did Pre-Crisis. Compare that to Cass Cain, JPV, and Steph Brown post-FP who were said to have never existed at all.

    most of her villains had never encountered her in post-Crisis canon before being slammed back into things.
    Honestly, cant even tell what you're saying here. Obviously her getting back some of her Pre-Crisis history would mean that those villains did encounter her before.

    Bruce Wayne was raised by Alfred after his parents were killed instead of Phillip Wayne, and the killer of the Waynes wasn't known.
    Really not the most consequential of changes. Like at all.

    Dick didn't get Nightwing from Clark using the identity in the Bottle City of Kandor.
    Uh, he still got the identity from Clark. And, again, saying Dick got the identity of Nightwing from a different story that Superman told him is wholly different from saying that he had never taken on that identity at all, like how they did with Tim Drake's time as Robin after Flashpoint, or that he'd never been to Blüdhaven, which they also did in the N52.

    The Legion had no history with Superboy, but we were still expected to think those stories were the same.
    Post-IC, Superboy did have a history with the Legion.

    It's too late to complain about DC rebooting, because they should not have done it the first time.
    Its really not too late. As long as fans have something to say about it, they can and will say it. And if you don't think they should have done it the first time, then what really justifies them doing it a second time?

    This wishy washy in between crap had precedent with Crisis, and it always leads to poor, chaotic results.
    All the more reason they shouldn't have hit that button again with Flashpoint after they had finally gotten their universe back to a point where it could be said to have an all-inclusive continuity.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-11-2017 at 06:08 AM.
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  3. #108
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Marvel pretty much went out of their way to say that the stories from the married era of Spider-Man still did happen. They straight up said that Peter and MJ were still a couple for the purposes of all of the stories over the past 20 years, but that they just hadn't been married.

    And while that is frustrating and does make certain stories harder to work in, its still leagues better than what DC did with the New 52.
    I don't think it's better at all, because Peter's character has been ruined almost beyond repair with that story having been published and the repercussions of it are still felt to this day. Clark and Diana's characters weren't ruined at all, and I can still stomach reading about them.

    And it was all done not to get rid of a relationship, but the very concept of marriage, which makes it even dumber. What is so offensive about a wedding ring that they have to make it so you have to go back and read the stories and mentally replace the word "wife" with "girlfriend whom I live with" every time you read it? And I haven't touched a Spider-Man comic since and it might have been explained, does Peter and Mary Jane not being married explain how Harry came back from the dead, thus ruining one of the best single issues of Spider-Man ever?



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    You do realize that's the point, don't you? Most readers don't want a new version of Spider-Man. They want the Spider-Man they're reading currently in the main Marvel Universe to be the same guy they've read since the 60s. The same guy who went through all of the famous Spider-Man stories that shaped the mythology.
    I don't really want a new Spider-Man either, but the idea holds more appeal than having the same Spider-Man sacrifice his marriage to the devil and becoming Tony Stark Jr.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yes. They were. Many of them were a continuous presence in Superman comics up until like a year or two before the reboot.


    And yet, they didn't.
    Serious question: what grand epics are there that feature Bibbo that are so important they can't be retconned out, while the man himself can show up and fill more or less the same role as he did before? Is his presence in Superman's life really that impactful?

    No they didn't, but not every character is present at all times, and you still haven't explained what you saw in the new 52 set up that prevented them from being around.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The point is that they already had their bromance established. So, why regress that character development just to retell it.....again. You realize you're advocating for rehashing old story ideas, right? Shouldn't DC strive to tell actual original content? I don't need to read about Batman and Superman coming to trust each other...again. I've already read that.
    DC should strive to tell original content, and they actually did try to publish some experimental books in that period that nobody bought because people only want the same things over and over. As for the World's Finest...what new ground are they going to cover with it? Have them get married or something?

    You keep bringing up character development as if all the characters DC has are the same as Spider-Man, who was designed from the Silver Age to show the growth of a boy into a man and the experiences that happened to him. Superman and Batman are more static and iconic in the way they are designed. They've always been friends and always will be, a hard reboot would clear out the clutter both have attached to them, but keep the main elements the same. Hell, we still had a Batman/Superman book published, so there was enough there to keep a series going.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And that "meaningless death" is regarded as pretty much the most definitive Superman story of all time. And it even impacts the stories that are being told today. You read the Doomsday arc of Rebirth Action Comics recently? Or even any Green Lantern story where Parallax pops up? You realize that whole addition to the GL mythos was tied directly to the Reign of the Supermen story, right?
    The most definitive story? That's debatable. Going back to that well has been detrimental to the character for a while, as it seems to be the only story DC is willing to adapt. The quality of it is up for debate as well, and Doomsday is, to put it bluntly, a shitty plot device. If you're going to kill Superman, use a good villain like Lex or Brainiac to do it. Bringing up Parallax is winning you no favors either. That was one of the worst things DC has ever done, and at this point, the lore of what Parallax is is so different from what it was back then that it can be lifted out of any Superman related lore and not really change that much.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Really? Was Lois still his wife, privy to his secret identity? Nope. Was Steve Lombard working at the Daily Planet? Nope. Was Pete Ross there at all? Uh, nope. So, no, Superman's supporting cast were not "doing the same things they'd more or less been doing since the Silver Age."
    Lois Lane, snarky ace reporter, is Superman's main love interest. Sometimes she is unaware of the secret and interested only in Superman and not Clark, sometimes she is aware and married to him, or somewhere in between. While neglecting Lois as much as it did was a mistake on the New 52's part, she is and always will be around and be the unspoken "endgame" of Superman's love life.

    So have Steve work for the Daily Planet again. Simple.

    Just reintroduce Pete Ross...or don't. How interesting is Pete, really?



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And yet, the Titans comics still carried on as if nothing had happened and maintained the Titans continuity and that Donna was a member of the team. And, again, Wonder Woman's history with the JLA was restored after Infinite Crisis anyway.

    Again, all of those stories were added back in to continuity after Infinite Crisis. So, tell me, why was it necessary then throw it all away again?
    And how well did that work out, exactly? Donna's been the punchline for DC's continuity problems ever since Crisis, and it's all due to them: 1. being foolish enough to reboot in the first place. 2. Not fully committing to it and planning it out. The Titans comic did not carry on as if nothing happened, because the Thia and Children of the Sun stuff had to be dropped, Hippolyta would never have visited Donna's wedding, and there was no advanced Paradise Island or Purple Ray to heal Gar with that time Slade nearly killed him.

    Infinite Crisis bringing this stuff back is not a good argument, because that's not organic storytelling at all and only serves to make things worse. Superboy's past with the Legion was restored? That's all well and good, but what about all those post-Crisis Legion or Superman comics where Clark was never Superboy? They can't be part of the history anymore. Infinite Crisis is bringing stuff back, but also erasing things. That's not a history, that's a jumbled mess.

    Infinite Crisis is one of the main things that ruined Wonder Woman. Her post-Crisis and pre-Crisis canons were more different than Superman's, they cannot bring those stories back into the history and claim they played out the same. The combination of that, Amazons Attack and the Odyssey pretty much put the nail in the coffin. While I'm not crazy about her New 52 reboot, she needed a clean slate of some kind. There was nothing worth holding onto anymore and the character was suffering under the weight of all the continuity screw ups. To a lesser extent, Superman was as well. Man of Steel, Birthright and Secret Origin...all claiming to be the canon origin story, and all very different from each other. At least with Morrison, we only had the one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    [B]Its really not too late. As long as fans have something to say about it, they can and will say it. And if you don't think they should have done it the first time, then what really justifies them doing it a second time?
    Because the second time would roll around long after the first (foolish) attempt had ruined the older universe almost beyond repair. It'd be a shame to lose the long history, but that history was already long gone and in its place was some sort of ghastly Frankenstein monster that never made much sense. Organic story telling was thrown out the window in 1986, that's really where things should have been prevented, but they weren't.

  4. #109
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Infinite Crisis bringing this stuff back is not a good argument, because that's not organic storytelling at all and only serves to make things worse. Superboy's past with the Legion was restored? That's all well and good, but what about all those post-Crisis Legion or Superman comics where Clark was never Superboy? They can't be part of the history anymore. Infinite Crisis is bringing stuff back, but also erasing things. That's not a history, that's a jumbled mess.
    Well, even if it is a jumbled mess, it's still nice to have stuff like that back in my opinion...

  5. #110
    Junior Member matt levin's Avatar
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  6. #111
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, even if it is a jumbled mess, it's still nice to have stuff like that back in my opinion...
    I'd rather have the stuff back than not, but it still doesn't create a coherent story.

    Of course, all this goes back to the first Crisis jettisoning all of Superman's lore in the first place.

  7. #112
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't even think DC should've even rebooted the DC Universe for Crisis on Infinite Earths, personally, while the idea of putting all of DC's various characters from Earth 1 - Earth 2 - Earth X - Earth C - Earth S - and otherwise might seem appealing, something like that would be difficult to do, and it causes too many problems than its worth. I've never felt that Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, the Freedom Fighters fit all that well when integrated into the main DC Universe.

    I read somewhere that Crisis was conceptualized because people at DC were worried that the concept of multiple earths might confuse and scare away new readers, while this might be true, I would also say that the continuity based quandaries and countless unnecessary retcons directly or indirectly caused by Crisis would've equally scare off new readers.
    Last edited by Timothy Hunter; 08-12-2017 at 12:06 PM.

  8. #113
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    Bringing up Parallax is winning you no favors either. That was one of the worst things DC has ever done
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    debatable


    Also, just to toss my hat in again, I really don't think Crisis is comparable with Nu52. With Crisis, the negative effects amounted to some lost stories and lore, along with some continuity hiccups. Not good things by any means, but plenty manageable, as shown by the fact that the era following Crisis up until the rise of DiDio was one of DC's greatest (And my personal favorite) Compare that to the Nu52 and it's pretty small potatoes, as here, they had even less planned out (By which I mean NOTHING), nearly every story not Batman or GL related was completely wiped out (And even those franchises were impacted by changes made), numerous characters had their personalities and backstories altered for the worse, and DOZENS upon DOZENS of characters, legacy, standalone and civilian alike, were completely wiped from existence. Not limboed; never existed.

    I really do think trying to justify the Nu52 with Crisis is a false equivalency. And in regards to the argument that the DCU was in a sorry state that it needed a clean slate? No, no it didn't. What it needed was new creative teams to repair the damage done to the DCU over the past several years, and someone spearheading the company who actually understood the appeal of the world and its characters. And its a mute point really, since the Nu52 didn't happen for creative reasons. It happened because DiDio's screw-ups had caused sales to drop, and since he wanted to keep his job, he pushed the big, red panic button, knowing a whole bunch of new #1's would raise sales, regardless of quality. Rebirth was the big, red panic button too, only DiDio and Lee were too prideful in their failed personalized version of the DCU to toss it away, so we've got the mess we do now. And so long as the current editorial are in power, that big red panic button is going to KEEP getting hit, because these people don't know what they're doing.
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  9. #114
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think the New 52, both the good and the bad, will be something to learn and grow from (and has been).

  10. #115
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the New 52, both the good and the bad, will be something to learn and grow from (and has been).
    I don't think DC actually did learn anything from the Nu52. Rebirth is just a bunch of buzzwords tied around returning concepts and a sales stunt in the form of the Watchmen, sponsored by the guy everyone still trusts for some reason (My best guess is that he tends to do "right" by DC's designated A-listers) The same mistakes are being made, and they will continue to be made.
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  11. #116
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I don't think DC actually did learn anything from the Nu52. Rebirth is just a bunch of buzzwords tied around returning concepts and a sales stunt in the form of the Watchmen, sponsored by the guy everyone still trusts for some reason (My best guess is that he tends to do "right" by DC's designated A-listers) The same mistakes are being made, and they will continue to be made.
    (Shrugs) I think they learned the issues with rushing through a reboot and altering characters or histories too much, and what elements are too essential for them to leave out, and what in the New 52 actually worked and what didn't. Hence Rebirth not being another wholesale reboot but a more gradual restoration of things.

    For the most part at least.

    And I still trust Johns.

  12. #117
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    The true error with comparing the New 52 with COIE is that most people here weren't alive, where as most people here were fans of the post-Crisis Universe. So then its easy to say COIE wasn't as bad as the New 52 because you are attached to the Post-Crisis Universe.
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  13. #118
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Not sure what this is for. If I came across as contradicting myself, I didn't intend it. I was talking about two different things there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I really do think trying to justify the Nu52 with Crisis is a false equivalency. And in regards to the argument that the DCU was in a sorry state that it needed a clean slate? No, no it didn't. What it needed was new creative teams to repair the damage done to the DCU over the past several years, and someone spearheading the company who actually understood the appeal of the world and its characters. And its a mute point really, since the Nu52 didn't happen for creative reasons. It happened because DiDio's screw-ups had caused sales to drop, and since he wanted to keep his job, he pushed the big, red panic button, knowing a whole bunch of new #1's would raise sales, regardless of quality. Rebirth was the big, red panic button too, only DiDio and Lee were too prideful in their failed personalized version of the DCU to toss it away, so we've got the mess we do now. And so long as the current editorial are in power, that big red panic button is going to KEEP getting hit, because these people don't know what they're doing.
    I honestly think one of the reasons the New 52 happened, and why other crap like Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis keeps happening, is because Crisis set up a toxic precedent. Bringing it up isn't totally out of left field, especially as the New 52 committed the same problems that the Crisis did and which lead to the DCU being such a mess in the first place.

    A new creative direction across the board, and by better minds than DiDio and company, could have worked wonderfully. I just don't think a full blown reboot to clear out the clutter (and that is what a lot of it is; just look at the Wonder Woman franchise ever since Marston died) is necessarily as bad an idea as people make it out to be. Not every era lasts forever. The post Crisis canon, despite many similarities, is not the same canon as the one that preceded it that it replaced. Why can't it's time come to an end?

    Again, the New 52 sucked much for the same reason Crisis sucked: it tried to have it both ways, in addition to having a lot of poor writing in the aftermath. An ideal reboot that commits fully and has good writing might not have the same problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The true error with comparing the New 52 with COIE is that most people here weren't alive, where as most people here were fans of the post-Crisis Universe. So then its easy to say COIE wasn't as bad as the New 52 because you are attached to the Post-Crisis Universe.
    This may be a good point too. Many people on here seemed to grow up with the post-Crisis era, the majority of which was before my time. Looking back at DC's entire published history, I find the older stuff appeals to me more, and that got thrown out for no good reason. I can empathize with those who like that era, but what they like largely came at the expense of something else, why should things be different here?

  14. #119
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Not sure what this is for. If I came across as contradicting myself, I didn't intend it. I was talking about two different things there.
    I was just being silly using a quote from your own post to represent my thoughts on one of your comments. Namely, Hal becoming Parallax being one of the worst things DC ever did being debatable. It got us Kyle, John and Guy found new directions, and for Hal himself, I thought Parallax was really cool. Even when I was a kid playing with my action figures, I had Hal as a villain. But more than that, he got a great redemption story, and while I would have been perfectly content with the story of the fallen hero ending there, we got even MORE great stuff with his time as the Spectre. Most seem to feel that Johns saved the character; I feel that he broke him.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This may be a good point too. Many people on here seemed to grow up with the post-Crisis era, the majority of which was before my time. Looking back at DC's entire published history, I find the older stuff appeals to me more, and that got thrown out for no good reason. I can empathize with those who like that era, but what they like largely came at the expense of something else, why should things be different here?
    Post-Crisis was BEFORE your time? I'd had the impression you were in the same age range as Buried Allen and MajorHoy.
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  15. #120
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I was just being silly using a quote from your own post to represent my thoughts on one of your comments.
    Oh, ok. That's cool then

    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Namely, Hal becoming Parallax being one of the worst things DC ever did being debatable. It got us Kyle, John and Guy found new directions, and for Hal himself, I thought Parallax was really cool. Even when I was a kid playing with my action figures, I had Hal as a villain. But more than that, he got a great redemption story, and while I would have been perfectly content with the story of the fallen hero ending there, we got even MORE great stuff with his time as the Spectre. Most seem to feel that Johns saved the character; I feel that he broke him.
    Well, I'm not much of a Kyle fan, so...

    It just seems like one of the worst hatchet jobs to any character in DC's history, and a pretty transparent attempt to get rid of Hal and make room for the younger, hipper Peter Parker-lite character that came after. I think Johns saved him from irrelevancy, even if some characteristics he's added on have been detrimental to the character in some regards.


    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Post-Crisis was BEFORE your time? I'd had the impression you were in the same age range as Buried Allen and MajorHoy.
    Hmm, maybe not before my time, but I didn't seriously start collecting current stuff until I was in high school while the Johns GL run was at its peak. So, that explains why I'm attached to Hal and don't see the big deal about Kyle. Before that, I was mainly into just Spider-Man and Batman, and collecting random back issues for them from any era.

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