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  1. #121
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It just seems like one of the worst hatchet jobs to any character in DC's history, and a pretty transparent attempt to get rid of Hal and make room for the younger, hipper Peter Parker-lite character that came after. I think Johns saved him from irrelevancy, even if some characteristics he's added on have been detrimental to the character in some regards.
    I think the only issue with Johns' characterization of Hal is turning him into a "frat boy" in the New 52 Justice League (but he generally didn't write any of them that well in the first few arcs).

    But he generally didn't write Hal like that, even in his actual run (okay there was that one moment with Carol in the first issue)...

  2. #122
    Incredible Member Black Angel's Avatar
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    as a wasted opportunity no way around that

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the only issue with Johns' characterization of Hal is turning him into a "frat boy" in the New 52 Justice League (but he generally didn't write any of them that well in the first few arcs).

    But he generally didn't write Hal like that, even in his actual run (okay there was that one moment with Carol in the first issue)...
    Yeah now that I think about it, most of the poor characterization people hated about Johns Hal can be isolated into those early JL issues.

    Which hardly seems fair, IMO. Hal was doing great otherwise

  4. #124
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    Well, I'm not much of a Kyle fan, so...
    Truth be told, I'm not HUGE on Kyle. I'm a fan definitely, but while I like him more than John and Hal, he falls behind every other Earth Lantern (And Kilowog) for me, as well as falling behind the other 4 BIG 90's legacies.(Cass, Linda, Wally and Connor)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It just seems like one of the worst hatchet jobs to any character in DC's history, and a pretty transparent attempt to get rid of Hal
    Personally don't think it's nearly as bad as how the aforementioned big 90's legacies (barring Kyle) were done away with to bring their Silver Age counterparts back on top. Especially since, again, his redemption story was well told, and Hal DID still end up as a hero with a solo book years before Johns came in.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't think it's better at all, because Peter's character has been ruined almost beyond repair with that story having been published and the repercussions of it are still felt to this day.
    Again, didn't say OMD was a good thing. Just said it was better than N52, because it was. Also, as stated, Marvel went out of its way to say that everything from the past 20 years of Spider-Man comics still happened but with MJ as Peter's live-in girlfriend as opposed to wife. That's leagues better than saying that Superman's entire history as a character was wiped from the history books.

    Also, you're talking about characterization, which is an entirely different thing from continuity.

    Clark and Diana's characters weren't ruined at all, and I can still stomach reading about them.
    Well, most disagreed there. And that's just a fact. There are countless articles where critics essentially said that the N52 broke Superman and even several that said the same thing regarding Wonder Woman.

    And I haven't touched a Spider-Man comic since and it might have been explained, does Peter and Mary Jane not being married explain how Harry came back from the dead, thus ruining one of the best single issues of Spider-Man ever?
    Cant tell you because since OMD, I've dropped off as well, but characters die and come back all the time. They pulled the same thing with Aunt May. And at least the Post-OMD Spider-Man comics looked a lot more like the Pre-OMD Spider-Man comics than what was the case for Superman comics pre- and post-Flashpoint.

    I don't really want a new Spider-Man either, but the idea holds more appeal than having the same Spider-Man sacrifice his marriage to the devil and becoming Tony Stark Jr.
    Well, most would prefer that he didn't either. But most would also prefer and OMD type deal to a N52 type deal.

    Serious question: what grand epics are there that feature Bibbo that are so important they can't be retconned out?
    Were George Taylor or Xa Du so important that any role they played couldn't be retconned out? You're just trying to move the goal post here. Here's the facts: these characters were around before Flashpoint and then, after Flashpoint, they were not, and most likely had been wiped from existence.

    No they didn't, but not every character is present at all times, and you still haven't explained what you saw in the new 52 set up that prevented them from being around.
    The very fact that they weren't even referenced or seen or heard from. The fact that some of the stories in which they'd played a part had been made impossible or "retold." Plucking the stories in which those characters were important basically established that they either never existed or were not the same characters. Introducing a new Helena Bertinelli means you are saying the first one never existed. Saying Final Crisis never happened (coupled with Dan Turpin's absence from the comics) means that Dan Turpin was likely wiped out too.

    DC should strive to tell original content, and they actually did try to publish some experimental books in that period that nobody bought
    A good 90% of the New 52 was rinse and repeat stories that basically rehashed the same old developments that the previous universe had already done. I don't need to see Supergirl acclimate to life on Earth. I've already seen her do that twice before. I don't need to see Superman meet Kon-El all over again. I already read it the first time.

    And the "experimental" books usually ended up being godawful.

    As for the World's Finest...what new ground are they going to cover with it? Have them get married or something?
    Basically anything else besides rehash the whole them meeting and coming to terms with each other team up story. We know how they feel about each other and how they trust each other.

    You keep bringing up character development as if all the characters DC has are the same as Spider-Man, who was designed from the Silver Age to show the growth of a boy into a man and the experiences that happened to him. Superman and Batman are more static and iconic in the way they are designed...a hard reboot would clear out the clutter both have attached to them, but keep the main elements the same.
    That's just factually wrong. Spider-Man wasn't created to show the journey from childhood to adulthood. Stan Lee wanted to create a character the same age as Robin, but who didn't have an authority figure like Batman. Also, Peter has been an adult for how many decades now? He stopped aging a while ago. However, him constantly remaining an adult in his late 20s, early 30s hasn't stopped him from developing as a character. Likewise, Iron Man, Captain America, Hank Pym, etc. have all basically been the same physical age since the Silver Age, and yet they still develop as characters. It should be the same deal with Batman and Superman.

    So, saying that characters don't develop because they don't become geriatric in the comics is a pretty untenable argument. The classic Superman set up before 1996 used to be Superman and Lois and Clark having a weird love "triangle" with Lois not knowing they were actually the same guy, but now, the classic dynamic evolved to be Lois not just knowing Clark is Superman but being married to him as well. That is character development that should never be "cleared out."

    The most definitive story? That's debatable. Going back to that well has been detrimental to the character for a while, as it seems to be the only story DC is willing to adapt. The quality of it is up for debate as well, and Doomsday is, to put it bluntly, a shitty plot device. If you're going to kill Superman, use a good villain like Lex or Brainiac to do it.
    Its just a fact that Death of Superman is the most well-known and pretty much most iconic Superman story out there. Its been so influential, especially back when it was first being published and added so many now iconic characters to his supporting casts and rogues gallery. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant.

    Bringing up Parallax is winning you no favors either. That was one of the worst things DC has ever done, and at this point, the lore of what Parallax is is so different from what it was back then that it can be lifted out of any Superman related lore and not really change that much.
    Lol. Seriously? Again, doesn't matter if you liked it. It shows that, yes, Death of Superman had major reverberations across the DCU and changed the shape of it. So, when you pull stories like that out of canon, you change the DCU and you rob the readers of everything they've invested in it.

    Lois Lane, snarky ace reporter, is Superman's main love interest. Sometimes she is unaware of the secret and interested only in Superman and not Clark, sometimes she is aware and married to him, or somewhere in between. While neglecting Lois as much as it did was a mistake on the New 52's part, she is and always will be around and be the unspoken "endgame" of Superman's love life.
    Except, she wasn't his main love interest in N52. Like you said, she was neglected. And like I said before, the classic set up evolved from being the dynamic you mention to being the one I mentioned earlier. THAT is character development. That should be preserved.

    So have Steve work for the Daily Planet again. Simple.

    Just reintroduce Pete Ross...or don't. How interesting is Pete, really?
    Why do we need to erase them and then (inevitably) reintroduce them when they were already there? Its a waste of everyone's time.

    And how well did that work out, exactly? Donna's been the punchline for DC's continuity problems ever since Crisis, and it's all due to them: 1. being foolish enough to reboot in the first place.
    Well, for one, there being no Diana doesn't mean that Donna suddenly could no longer be associated with the Amazons. Two, Donna was still regarded as one of the main characters of the Titans franchises and the writers did not say her role on the team was diminished or erased after Crisis. And, thirdly, AGAIN, IC brought all of that stuff back anyway. In JLA #0 from 2006, we even see a flashback of Diana at Donna and Terry Long's wedding.

    Infinite Crisis bringing this stuff back is not a good argument, because that's not organic storytelling at all and only serves to make things worse. Superboy's past with the Legion was restored? That's all well and good, but what about all those post-Crisis Legion or Superman comics where Clark was never Superboy? They can't be part of the history anymore. Infinite Crisis is bringing stuff back, but also erasing things. That's not a history, that's a jumbled mess.
    It really doesn't erase anything because readers can just assume some of the contradictory details worked out differently. And if Post-IC was a jumbled mess, then what the hell was the N52?

    While I'm not crazy about her New 52 reboot, she needed a clean slate of some kind.

    No, they really didn't need a clean slate. And you do know that new directions can be achieved, without completely tearing everything else to the ground, right? You can say that they can't bring that stuff back all you want, but the fact is that they just did. Just like they're bringing stuff back now.

    And the Superman stories never really "competed." DC simply just said SO was the controlling origin story.

    It'd be a shame to lose the long history, but that history was already long gone and in its place was some sort of ghastly Frankenstein monster that never made much sense.
    And I'd rather take some "Frankenstein monster" than something that's just completely and totally empty. Not just in terms of history, but quality as well.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-12-2017 at 10:48 PM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  6. #126
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Again, didn't say OMD was a good thing. Just said it was better than N52, because it was. Also, as stated, Marvel went out of its way to say that everything from the past 20 years of Spider-Man comics still happened but with MJ as Peter's live-in girlfriend as opposed to wife. That's leagues better than saying that Superman's entire history as a character was wiped from the history books.
    I'd still put OMD on par with the New 52.

    They can say that the continuity still happened but once they actually started going into it there was evidence that not everything was the same as far as character history and what originally happened, because it couldn't be.

    On-top of just making them live-in partners just underselling a lot of Spider-Man history.

  7. #127
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    While I'm not crazy about her New 52 reboot, she needed a clean slate of some kind.
    Other than Hawkman-who is FOREVER messed up who else was so bad that butchering every single franchise not named GL was needed?

    Sales were low did not meed destroy everything. Maybe looking at what stories that were tossed up on the wall would have been better.

    Who green lighted the Teen Titan butcher tour? Who hired a string of bad writers who could not remember Static's name, did not understand the concept of A-Z list and couldn't keep a stable roster because somebody had to DIE, be hurt or get kicked out of the bat cave.

    Who pandered to complainers who could not accept a diverse JLA that marked the end of an era for a man who did more to help DC be popular than some of the guys currently collecting checks.

    Who took out Bruce and made Superman go for a walk and messed up Paradise Island?

    A clean slate is not a green light to IGNORE all of your successes and ruin everything that is not linked to Silver age or Hal Jordan's dictatorship of the GL franchise.


    DC should strive to tell original content, and they actually did try to publish some experimental books in that period that nobody bought.
    Well when the ones folks actually WANTED to support were train wrecks lead by bad editors-what do you expect?

    Nobody wanted Static in Harlem.

    Nobody wanted a retelling of Jaime's origin to pander to stereotypes.

    Nobody asked for Hawk & Dove at stage one after the push they got in Brightest Day.

    Nobody wanted Ronnie vs Jason in Firestorm

    Folks don't regret decent experimental books like Omac, Animal Man, Swamp Thing & I Vampire-they knew it was going to be a short run.

    Folks got an issue when guys like Firestorm, Static, Beetle and others who are EXPECTED to give Marvel a run to be decent reads. Not stuff tossed to the wall. Nor to get trolled by New 52 sheep with the "if you were a real fan you would buy it no matter what."

    Some of those same fans are boycotting Batman over his new son, raising HELL about Wally West's little cousin and begging folks to support Hal. If it was about the book you would not be complaining.

    New 52 was a rush job that should have been plotted out better without throwing out what worked.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'd still put OMD on par with the New 52.

    They can say that the continuity still happened but once they actually started going into it there was evidence that not everything was the same as far as character history and what originally happened, because it couldn't be.

    On-top of just making them live-in partners just underselling a lot of Spider-Man history.
    I also hate OMD and wish Peter and MJ were back together, but I will say that at least the Peter who was in post-OMD comics wasn't as alien to me as the Clark that was in the comics after Flashpoint.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-12-2017 at 10:42 PM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  9. #129
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'd still put OMD on par with the New 52.

    They can say that the continuity still happened but once they actually started going into it there was evidence that not everything was the same as far as character history and what originally happened, because it couldn't be.

    On-top of just making them live-in partners just underselling a lot of Spider-Man history.
    For this reason OMD will always be worse for me. Well, one of the reasons. At least with Superman they were real about the situation that they were starting over with him. They tried to have their cake and eat it too in other franchises like GL and Batman, and even with Superman as time wore on they got cold feet and tried insinuating certain stuff happened that didn't stand up (like DOS). But again, in the beginning they were upfront and were trying to execute a restart. No Superman fan was in the dark there. But Quesada and co. tried to play the card that so much of Spider-Man's history still happened right off the bat, but the reality is it didn't stand up to scrutiny. Peter and M.J. being married, not just living together, had a far greater effect on past stories than they were willing to admit. They tried to play fans for fools right off the bat and I don't like that. I'll take an honest attempt at a restart over restarting and lying about it. The other reason its worse is that, considering pure story in regard to the events that led to said changes, Flashpoint was at least had a fun factor to it since it for a time delved into an alternate reality. It and its tie-ins were a better read than OMD, which was just a cacophony of nonsense start to finish.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-12-2017 at 07:03 PM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  10. #130
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    The event that got rid of panties on the outside.

  11. #131
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightrider View Post
    The event that got rid of panties on the outside.
    I suspect, even without the New Fifty Two initiative, I think they still would've gotten rid of Superman's outside-underpants.

  12. #132
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I also hate OMD and wish Peter and MJ were back together, but I will say that at least the Peter who was in post-OMD comics wasn't as alien to me as the Clark that was in the comics after Flashpoint.
    I know it's all a matter of opinion and everything, but I honestly disagree. Superman felt more like Superman than he had felt in a loooooong ass time, at least in the Morrison run. Peter felt like a complete stranger compared to the man he was before, and being responsible in-story for tossing away his maturity and happiness so Quesada could live through him vicariously and bang multiple hot women instead of being married to one

  13. #133

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    New Motherf*$king Coke. That's how people will view New52 in 20 years. They took the classic formula, threw it out the window, gave us fizzy bong water in a shiny blue can, pissed everyone off, "rebirthed" as coke classic, and sales went through the roof. See a pattern here? Pre New52, DC had problems but instead of using a scalpel, they used a hatchet. It was unnecessary, misguided, poorly executed, and a slap in the face of anyone who was a fan of the comics before.

    And OMD... as in if I had to sit through that pile of horsechitt for one more fothermucking day, I would wear that thing from Clockwork Orange that pins open your eyes, travel to South Carolina on August 21st, and stare up at the sky until my retinas were completely burned out so I never have to read another dumb text bubble again. It all happened but instead of being married, she was a live in girlfriend? Are you serious? Wait, was this one of the Joker's schemes? Force people to read these books so they'll go insane?

    My advice to the architects of these debacles (Didio and Quesada): go find a doctor who can give you a glass stomach. That way you'll be able to see where you're going with your head up your ass. Nerd rage!

    (My apologies to anyone who generally enjoyed new52.)
    Save Ferris...

  14. #134
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    Assuming anyone will remember the New 52 by that time.

  15. #135
    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the only issue with Johns' characterization of Hal is turning him into a "frat boy" in the New 52 Justice League (but he generally didn't write any of them that well in the first few arcs).

    But he generally didn't write Hal like that, even in his actual run (okay there was that one moment with Carol in the first issue)...
    I mean it was supposed to happen five years ago in that first arc, right?

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