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  1. #1
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Default Goku vs Silver Surfer

    This came up on Facebook with CBR alumnus Froggy and I realised I had no real idea of where Goku is any more in terms of power.

    Can he beat the former Herald of Galactus or is he still lacking?

  2. #2
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    He's got the raw power, but lacks the speed to go first and lacks the resistance to esoteric nonsense that Surfer can do to him. Surfer can just drop him in a big bang in another universe, and Goku is dead. Surfer can just turn his blood to poison, and it's over. Surfer can just mind-whammy him, and it's over. Surfer can turn him into a house plant, and it's over. And before anyone starts: VEGETO resisted being transmogrified, but nobody else ever has. That doesn't pass through to Goku.

  3. #3
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Hope Froggy is doing well...
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  4. #4
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    I'd say he has the firepower but not the speed.

    There are like two good speed feats for him in Super (in a 100 eps ), but I'd wait for one or two more before trying to make an argument.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    The only chance Goku would have to match Surfers speed is to dial the KK up to 10, which takes time to power up to. If he started the match at full power? SSBKKX10 and all? Then he has a chance to hit Surfer with a TP attack(I doubt moving Goku to a place where the Big Bang is taking place would kill him since he is so small and a BB so friggin huge and spreads out across the length of a universe so he wouldn't be taking anywhere near even 1/100th of it's full power, but he would be tough enough to survive through it). Other than that his options are limited.
    Last edited by Cody; 08-09-2017 at 07:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  6. #6
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    If you dropped Goku at the singularity that started a Big Bang - that would negate the dispersion argument. I note that the Spectre did this to opponents also. It took care of his problem.

    If you transmute Goku - does he still continue fighting ? Thinking about the chocolate Goku and Buu.

  7. #7
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    The only chance Goku would have to match Surfers speed is to dial the KK up to 10, which takes time to power up to. If he started the match at full power? SSBKKX10 and all? Then he has a chance to hit Surfer with a TP attack(I doubt moving Goku to a place where the Big Bang is taking place would kill him since he is so small and a BB so friggin huge and spreads out across the length of a universe so he wouldn't be taking anywhere near even 1/100th of it's full power, but he would be tough enough to survive through it). Other than that his options are limited.
    I'm sorry, Cody, but... ouch. The physics of your description of the Big Bang's size just hurt my head.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    I'm sorry, Cody, but... ouch. The physics of your description of the Big Bang's size just hurt my head.
    Explain please, because just saying my description "hurts your head" is condescending and a little insulting enough(you're insinuating I'm stupid btw, intentionally or not, that is how I see that remark). I'm basing my reply off of this:



    So unless you are saying PC Supes is a universal level being and was actively tanking the full force of the big bang before he was transported out of there, I fail to see how my description of what would happen to Goku during a theoretical event(as everything revolving around the Big Bang is just that; one big theory) would "hurt your head".
    Last edited by Cody; 08-09-2017 at 09:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  9. #9
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    I'm not insinuating you're stupid, man, because I know you're not. Sorry you took it that way.

    But while the Big Bang does indeed cover the full size of the universe, at that point in time the universe had essentially zero volume. It expanded from there very, very rapidly, but the Big Bang itself was impossibly small (while still simultaneously being infinite... it gets really confusing).

    Also, I know comic Big Bang events aren't necessarily going to be the same as real world theoretical physics, but neither should a DC Big Bang be reflective of what happens if a Marvel character takes a Dragonball character to a Big Bang.
    Last edited by Beadle; 08-09-2017 at 10:02 AM.

  10. #10
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Smith View Post
    If you dropped Goku at the singularity that started a Big Bang - that would negate the dispersion argument. I note that the Spectre did this to opponents also. It took care of his problem.

    If you transmute Goku - does he still continue fighting ? Thinking about the chocolate Goku and Buu.
    No, Goku has zero feats for fighting while transmuted. Super Vegeto did this against Buu, not Goku, and that's a whole separate thing, and Vegeto is way past Goku in so many ways. This, BTW, is based on Vegeto in BASE form dominating Merged Zamasu, before going SSJ and dominating that much more until the rules changed about Potaras.

  11. #11
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post

    So unless you are saying PC Supes is a universal level being and was actively tanking the full force of the big bang before he was transported out of there, I fail to see how my description of what would happen to Goku during a theoretical event(as everything revolving around the Big Bang is just that; one big theory) would "hurt your head".
    The Big Bang is not really in doubt by anyone who has the slightest science knowledge at all. So trying to dismiss it as "just one big theory" is a little off.

    Basically, imagine this: a ludicrously intense singularity at the center of nothing. Goes boom. Physical laws are completely broken at this point, temperature, pressure and velocity here are unimaginable. The amount of energy released is why the universe is still expanding now, 12 billion years later, at absolutely massive speeds. That's a little bit beyond Goku's pay-grade.

  12. #12
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    The Big Bang was, as my colleagues above note, a really weird time for physics. You had essentially all the potential energy and matter in the Universe condensed into a space around the size of a particle. You then had, some millionths of a fraction of a second later, literally everything. Scientist reckon that insane amounts of energy, at temperatures that make the cores of stars look positive chilly, got thrown in every direction at thousands of times faster than speed of light.

    Goku isn't shrugging that off.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    No, Goku has zero feats for fighting while transmuted. Super Vegeto did this against Buu, not Goku, and that's a whole separate thing, and Vegeto is way past Goku in so many ways. This, BTW, is based on Vegeto in BASE form dominating Merged Zamasu, before going SSJ and dominating that much more until the rules changed about Potaras.
    Vegito never fought Merged Zamasu while in his base form, or as an SSJ for that matter. Goku and Vegeta fused, Vegito made his entrance and turned on SSB right away. How much he dominated the fight varies between the manga and the anime.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quick note, as far as I'm aware, unless someone is referencing a feat that I've missed or what have you, the Surfer has to actually physically travel through time to travel through time, so aside from anything else, he'd be both exposing himself to the big bang, and doing some leaving the arena style shenanigans for that move.

  15. #15
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    The Big Bang was, as my colleagues above note, a really weird time for physics. You had essentially all the potential energy and matter in the Universe condensed into a space around the size of a particle. You then had, some millionths of a fraction of a second later, literally everything. Scientist reckon that insane amounts of energy, at temperatures that make the cores of stars look positive chilly, got thrown in every direction at thousands of times faster than speed of light.

    Goku isn't shrugging that off.
    It also made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.



    As far as arguing that Goku survives "cuz dispersion" goes. Definitely not, as others have already so eloquently explained.
    "Someone or thing has got to pay, it's given too much to take away. Oh I just want a legacy, Oh I just want it all to never fade! Don't we all arrive, at the same place where we began?" - Divisi

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