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  1. #46
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Meh. 10 years of waiting and THAT's the payoff?

    Epic Fail.

    In hindsight, SMALLVILLE would have been so much better if they had called it a wrap after Season 4. If the show was just about Clark's high school career, there would have been NO expectations for the suit. "Commencement" should have been the series finale.
    Or, it should have ended with Commencement and turned into something else. Lots of more interesting avenues to take, instead of what they did.
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  2. #47
    Mighty Member Minerboh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I'm only saying that your dig at Welling for being okay with some form of nudity for The Fog versus his being okay with wearing the Superman suit doesn't make sense, because the decision making process was different for the different stories being told. Welling's reasons for not wearing the Superman suit had to do with the show's premise as a prequel, so he didn't want to be shown in the full suit as a way to inspire viewers to use their imagination and to say that he didn't just become his version or another, new version of Superman; rather, his origin was a universal origin that any version of Superman past, present, or future could be projected onto if you used your imagination. He was telling the untold story of the origin in live action, and so his reasoning was rooted in the narrative and its premise. I imagine it was the same for The Fog. He felt it was appropriate to be less clothed in that movie, because it suited the film and the character he was playing.

    Basically, I felt you were ignoring the two different narrative contexts of The Fog and Smallville when you said, "Apparently, he found it better to appear naked in the atrocious The Fog remake rather than wearing an iconic costume." The way I see it, he wouldn't have approached either decision from a vanity standpoint, but a narrative one. It was better to appear naked in The Fog than to wear the Superman suit, because appearing naked in the The Fog was appropriate for that film's narrative and premise whereas wearing the Superman suit was not appropriate for Smallville's narrative and premise.

    Lastly, neither The Fog nor Smallville can be said to have any effect on his career, because we can't know if Welling's productivity after the show ended was related to his being rejected by Hollywood or fans out of alleged disgust and payback for his decision to not wear the suit. Other factors need to be considered and appropriate comparisons made. Superman actors, regardless of what they wore or how beloved they were, have struggled as actors; I believe there is even something known as the Superman curse. CW/WB actors don't exactly tend to make it big either. Finally, not every actor has the ambition to seek out fame or lots of projects. You can't say that Tom Welling's career has been negatively affected, if you don't know what he's tried and either succeeded or failed at doing. You don't know the parts he didn't get, for example. You don't know if he didn't feel like acting for awhile because he was going through a difficult divorce or struggling with what it meant to give up playing a character he grew up with for 10 years. You just don't know.

    In short, you're making a lot of unfair and illogical assumptions.
    I do not finding it non logical at all.
    You are anactor and you are making your big break with a series.
    You have a huge fan base that wanted to see you as a certain character, a character portrayed by actors far more iconic than you.
    You actually say than you do not want to wear that costume despite a plan stating that the character will appear during the final moments of the final episode.

    If you want to see logic in that, it is perfectly fine.
    I do not.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minerboh View Post
    I do not finding it non logical at all.
    You are anactor and you are making your big break with a series.
    You have a huge fan base that wanted to see you as a certain character, a character portrayed by actors far more iconic than you.
    You actually say than you do not want to wear that costume despite a plan stating that the character will appear during the final moments of the final episode.

    If you want to see logic in that, it is perfectly fine.
    I do not.
    Both are logical based on the specific demands of the respective narratives. The plan for the show was always "No Flights, No Tights." Costumes were never promised. It was an origin story, and the premise of the show was to show how Clark got to that point of being Superman and leave the rest to viewers' imaginations about what form that would take. In that way, he was whatever Superman you wanted him to be. That was the show's design, and that was how Welling and the team working on the show always approached it. You can disagree with that rationale, but it has its own internal logic just like Welling's decision to be naked in The Fog.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    The truth is often ugly: there DEFINITELY is a time limit to maximize your impact in the limelight. Welling opted not to do so. Now, no matter how much money Welling raises for whatever cause, it's still going to be a smaller amount than if he had done the same when he was Clark Kent.


    A mistake Cavill thankfully seems to have learned from:



    Any actor who takes time to visit hospitals in costume to cheer up kids is awesome in my book.
    LOL! The notion that Cavill does what he does because he learned a lesson from Welling's lack of action is hilarious and insulting. As if Cavill needed someone to teach him or model a certain behavior and as if he pays that close attention to Tom Welling's behavior. Even worse is your assumption that Welling didn't give back in his own way or that the only ways of giving back that matter to you are the kind that are public so as to soak up the glory and accolades for such charity work. Tom Welling did give back to kids. He just didn't do it in an attention seeking way. Beyond the countless pictures and stories of kids -- many from Make-A-Wish who visited the set while the show was filming -- there are stories about Tom's generosity and his history giving back to children's hospital causes.


    source

    Your judgmental approach to Tom Welling is appalling to me.

  5. #50
    Mighty Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    If I recall, from interviews at the time, the show had the SR suit on loan in the 10th season for all of the shots in the box / stuck in crystal. It would have cost a lot of money, something the show didn't have, to have a costume made (if they'd known they could build one for $10 like they did for Hoechlins suit, maybe we'd gotten it). Keep in mind Welling was also a producer at this time, so besides having input he also had to keep costs down. And then you have to factor in this: was Welling in good enough shape to wear it, or would he need to spend a few months working out for a 5 minute scene?

    My point is, I believe him when he talks about his reasons. I'm sure some of the above is sprinkled in there too. And, as MissLane said, no costumes were promised (and based on how they created new designs for the other heroes who appeared, I was surprised when they went with the basic supersuit anyway). I also believe the original showrunners planned for the show to end when Clark discovered the Fortress, so the suit was definitely never in the cards. Fans of the show, of which I am one, should be pleased we even got the cg shots.
    Last edited by Clark_Kent; 08-10-2017 at 04:41 PM.
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  6. #51
    BACK FROM THE BLEED Atomic Man's Avatar
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    I abandoned Smallville around the middle of season 3 and only returned occasionally. I've begun re-watching the series now that's in on Hulu and I'm right where I was when I jumped off. I'm a lot more forgiving now and find this show vastly superior to the bulk of the current CW output and, of course, the Goiter/Snyder verse.

    As for the flights and tights at the end of the series, I see things from both sides. On the fan side, I completely understand the payoff of seeing Clark in the full suit and taking to the sky as Superman. On the other hand, I see where Welling's coming from: once he's seen in the suit, it's no longer the show they'd worked on for 10 years. It's been "Smallville" up to that point and then, for the last half-hour, it would be "Superman." I also get the feeling Welling really didn't want to put that suit on out of fear of being typecast, though he was already typecast long before the suit was even in the picture.

    The "problem" of ending Smallville is a lot like the similar issue with ending Star Trek Voyager: the show's 7 years have been about getting home; if you have them arrive at the beginning of the final episode, the show becomes something else. We'd see Janeway and the crew go their separate ways, etc., but that's not what the show was about. In both cases, though, I'd have loved a TV movie or mini-series cap on the shows with separate titles. "Metropolis" or "Superman" in Smallville's case and "Star Trek Homecoming" in Voyager's.
    Spurious versions, fundamentally wrongheaded premises, can, and often do, prevail from time to time, but eventually the character, Superman himself, Tulpa Superman, will–somehow, somehow–resist and reverse that meddling, reconstituting himself in the world as he means to be. ~Alvin Schwartz (paraphrased by Tom deHaven)

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Francisco's Avatar
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    Welling was afraid that the Superman curse would destroy/hinder his career. Turned out it wasn't necessary.
    "By force of will he turns his gaze upon the seething horror bellow us on the hillside.
    Yes, he feels the icy touch of fear, but he is not cowed. He is Superman!"

  8. #53
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Man View Post
    I abandoned Smallville around the middle of season 3 and only returned occasionally. I've begun re-watching the series now that's in on Hulu and I'm right where I was when I jumped off. I'm a lot more forgiving now and find this show vastly superior to the bulk of the current CW output and, of course, the Goiter/Snyder verse.

    As for the flights and tights at the end of the series, I see things from both sides. On the fan side, I completely understand the payoff of seeing Clark in the full suit and taking to the sky as Superman. On the other hand, I see where Welling's coming from: once he's seen in the suit, it's no longer the show they'd worked on for 10 years. It's been "Smallville" up to that point and then, for the last half-hour, it would be "Superman." I also get the feeling Welling really didn't want to put that suit on out of fear of being typecast, though he was already typecast long before the suit was even in the picture.

    The "problem" of ending Smallville is a lot like the similar issue with ending Star Trek Voyager: the show's 7 years have been about getting home; if you have them arrive at the beginning of the final episode, the show becomes something else. We'd see Janeway and the crew go their separate ways, etc., but that's not what the show was about. In both cases, though, I'd have loved a TV movie or mini-series cap on the shows with separate titles. "Metropolis" or "Superman" in Smallville's case and "Star Trek Homecoming" in Voyager's.
    Here's the thing, though: at the end of the last episode, we see "him" in the Superman suit. Yeah, it was CG, and from fleeting shots, but it's there. So that kinda throws the idea of "you can't do that or it's a different show" out the window. At that point, it's that he just doesn't want to do it. That doesn't mean he's a bad person in general, or negate the awesome charity work he's done in both public and private. Said charity work also doesn't negate what seems to be a kind of "love/hate" relationship with the character and not wanting to get typecast in that. And I totally get why he'd feel that way, I even have some experience with that perspective. But after 10 seasons, you know what everybody was wanting to see. And doing that for the last 10 minutes of the final episode would not have been any more typecasting than the last 10 seasons were for him. That ship had already sailed - at that time, anyway. Hopefully things are going well for him now with new projects.

    The Ruby-Spears Superman cartoon had "The Superman Family Album" shorts to tell his early life and even the final one of those ended with him as Superman.

    Again, it's not that he's a bad person or anything, but making them do it in CG was a mistake, imo, and certainly hurt the finale for me.
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  9. #54
    Fantastic Member signalman112's Avatar
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  10. #55
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Here's the thing, though: at the end of the last episode, we see "him" in the Superman suit. Yeah, it was CG, and from fleeting shots, but it's there. So that kinda throws the idea of "you can't do that or it's a different show" out the window. At that point, it's that he just doesn't want to do it.
    No, it doesn't mean Tom Welling didn't want to do it, at least for personal rather than creative reasons. Look, I get that you didn't get everything you wanted in the finale, but this habit of putting words in Welling's mouth or presuming to divine his underlying motives is just absurd. The "fleeting shots" are intended to be glimpses rather than the full reveal, which is exactly in line with the approach Welling described in these statements. It's the Rorschach Test version of bringing Superman to Smallville: an impression that gives the viewer enough detail to generate a gestalt effect vision of whatever final form one wants to see. Indeed, it seems Welling's comments are functioning in much the same way. In giving his definitive answer to the question of why we didn't see him in a full costume in the series finale, Welling has once again left fans with the raw materials to draw whatever conclusions they wish.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Agree. Clark running around as "The Blur" was the stupidest thing ever.

    I've never been a fan of Welling. He has the Derek Zoolander face. I always referred to him as "The Man of Blue Steel".
    Especially when Jimmy was able to link Clark's civilian and superhero identities by his wardrobe. Pretty much all the clothes Clark owned at that point were red or blue, as Clark realised later that episode. And season ten to adopt the mild mannered persona? It's a good thing Clark had a support team in the show, as well as the tendency for those who found out about his powers to get either amnesia, sent to Belle Reeve or killed.

  12. #57
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    I for one was only slightly disappointed then we didn't get to see Welling in the full suit with no CGI, but for the most part I enjoyed the last episode then, and last spring I did a rewatch of the whole series, and I still enjoyed it and I actually think that Welling was right not to wear the suit and give us full on Superman for an hour or more. The series was never about Superman. It was about how Clark Kent grew from awkward teenage alien farm boy into the man that takes that fateful step to become Superman. It was always telling the story of why and how he gets to that point. As the show was originally conceived, Superman was always going to be the last 10 seconds of the last episode. If the original producers got their way, we'd probably only see the shirt rip at the end IF that!

    Granted, the show ran perhaps three seasons too long ( there was a 5-7 year plan with the original producers) and kind of set some people up for disappointment by showing several DCU Superheroes in full codename and regailia, implying we'd see the same for Superman at the end, but that was more the fault of the CW deciding to keep it going because it was their flagship show at the time, thus forcing the New producers from seasons 8-10 to turn it into a Superman show without actually calling him SUPERMAN or showing him in the suit. That's what created the false impression and anticipation we'd see Welling in the full on tights in the last episode having an epic fight with Lex or Darkseid, but that was a betrayal of what the show was intended to be. So the last Episode was a compromise that works, IMO. I know it doesn't work for some, but it works for me. It depends on what your expectations were.

    The only real agregeous thing that was done in the last episode is what was done with Lex Luthor. The memory wipe thing was a cheap dues ex machina that sabotaged what would have been an intriguing way to set up the inevitable Superman/Luthor Eternal struggle. Granted, the Season 11 comic does some intriguing things with Lex and what happened there, but to this day that is the only real sore point I have with that episode.

    That all being said...The show is long done. It's there. We've got two live action Supermen running around now. To be salty towards Welling for making what was in part an understandable career decision while attempting to stick to the original intention of the show does smell of fanboy entitlement at it's worst, particularly the passive aggressive digs at him implying he's a bad person because he didn't fulfill a segment of fanboys and fangirls their wish of seeing Tom in tights and a cape.

    I can guarantee you all that if he HAD worn the suit,some of the same people salty and insulting Welling for not wearing the suit would still be critical of him now, probably making fun of his physique in the suit, or how cheap it looked and would probably be saying. " They shouldn't have ever shown him in the suit! It should have been CGI glimpses! Welling's ego made him think he could wear that suit, LAME! He should leave that to Reeve or Cavill!"
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 08-11-2017 at 05:15 AM.
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  13. #58
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    No, it doesn't mean Tom Welling didn't want to do it, at least for personal rather than creative reasons. Look, I get that you didn't get everything you wanted in the finale, but this habit of putting words in Welling's mouth or presuming to divine his underlying motives is just absurd. The "fleeting shots" are intended to be glimpses rather than the full reveal, which is exactly in line with the approach Welling described in these statements. It's the Rorschach Test version of bringing Superman to Smallville: an impression that gives the viewer enough detail to generate a gestalt effect vision of whatever final form one wants to see. Indeed, it seems Welling's comments are functioning in much the same way. In giving his definitive answer to the question of why we didn't see him in a full costume in the series finale, Welling has once again left fans with the raw materials to draw whatever conclusions they wish.
    The last shot could have (and should have, imo) easily been him in a dramatic pose as Superman and then flying off. The fact that they didn't/wouldn't do even that says a lot to me. And I've been hearing things from other Smallville actors for years at the Superman Celebration and I have to be honest... I do find it just a bit hard to not think he's covering his butt a bit here. Not much, this is the most we've heard from him on the subject.. but I still think he is, a bit.

    Him saying the show "hadn't earned it" I can kinda see. But after a decade+ of sticking with the show, the fans certainly had.

    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    That all being said...The show is long done. It's there. We've got two live action Supermen running around now. To be salty towards Welling for making what was in part an understandable career decision while attempting to stick to the original intention of the show does smell of fanboy entitlement at it's worst, particularly the passive aggressive digs at him implying he's a bad person because he didn't fulfill a segment of fanboys and fangirls their wish of seeing Tom in tights and a cape.

    I can guarantee you all that if he HAD worn the suit,some of the same people salty and insulting Welling for not wearing the suit would still be critical of him now, probably making fun of his physique in the suit, or how cheap it looked and would probably be saying. " They shouldn't have ever shown him in the suit! It should have been CGI glimpses! Welling's ego made him think he could wear that suit, LAME! He should leave that to Reeve or Cavill!"
    Oh, yeah - it's lone done, you're right. And I don't get the personal hate on Welling, that's rather uncalled for. But, as fans, we point out mistakes in everything from the Fleischer cartoons on - not to mention the Reeve movies - so I'd say it's fair to, if one is so inclined, call this out as an error on the show, collectively. It's part of geekdom, really.
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  14. #59
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post



    Oh, yeah - it's lone done, you're right. And I don't get the personal hate on Welling, that's rather uncalled for. But, as fans, we point out mistakes in everything from the Fleischer cartoons on - not to mention the Reeve movies - so I'd say it's fair to, if one is so inclined, call this out as an error on the show, collectively. It's part of geekdom, really.
    It's all fair game to criticize the show, but to,as some have, to cast aspersions on Welling for being some sort of egocentric asshole Because he wouldn't cater to the fans their wish of seeing him in tights takes things too far. Not you or a few others, but those here making snarky comments about Welling's looks or perceived lack of career since SMALLVILLE is uncalled for.After all, when he signed on to do the show, he signed on to play a Clark Kent finding his way to Superman. That's what he did. Narratively, the show ends with Clark Kent becoming Superman. He fullfilled his end of the bargain and did his job. His job was not to wear a Superman costume to fullfil the desires of fanboys and girls who got their hopes up that the show would go beyond it's previously stated promise of showing the journey from boy to man and making the decision to become Superman.

    In fact, by even giving us Superman , doing Superman things like rescuing Air Force one and pushing An entire planet out of orbit does go above and beyond the show's mission statement. Now, of course fans are entitled to be disappointed to a point, but those fans were never promised an hour or two of Tom Welling in full costume calling himself Superman. The audience was promised seeing the character of Clark ending the series as Superman, which we got and more. We just didn't get a money shot of Tom in a full Superman suit from which memes could be born from.

    Also, as an aside, Welling is going to be on an upcoming episode of Michael Rosenbaum's "Inside of you" podcast sometime in the near future. Welling and Rosenbaum have both mentioned it on Instagram. It's very likely that the two will discuss Smallville and it's also possible Welling will open up even more about this very subject. Should be interesting.The episode has already been recorded as I understand.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 08-11-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I'm only saying that your dig at Welling for being okay with some form of nudity for The Fog versus his being okay with wearing the Superman suit doesn't make sense, because the decision making process was different for the different stories being told. Welling's reasons for not wearing the Superman suit had to do with the show's premise as a prequel, so he didn't want to be shown in the full suit as a way to inspire viewers to use their imagination and to say that he didn't just become his version or another, new version of Superman; rather, his origin was a universal origin that any version of Superman past, present, or future could be projected onto if you used your imagination. He was telling the untold story of the origin in live action, and so his reasoning was rooted in the narrative and its premise. I imagine it was the same for The Fog. He felt it was appropriate to be less clothed in that movie, because it suited the film and the character he was playing.

    Basically, I felt you were ignoring the two different narrative contexts of The Fog and Smallville when you said, "Apparently, he found it better to appear naked in the atrocious The Fog remake rather than wearing an iconic costume." The way I see it, he wouldn't have approached either decision from a vanity standpoint, but a narrative one. It was better to appear naked in The Fog than to wear the Superman suit, because appearing naked in the The Fog was appropriate for that film's narrative and premise whereas wearing the Superman suit was not appropriate for Smallville's narrative and premise.

    Lastly, neither The Fog nor Smallville can be said to have any effect on his career, because we can't know if Welling's productivity after the show ended was related to his being rejected by Hollywood or fans out of alleged disgust and payback for his decision to not wear the suit. Other factors need to be considered and appropriate comparisons made. Superman actors, regardless of what they wore or how beloved they were, have struggled as actors; I believe there is even something known as the Superman curse. CW/WB actors don't exactly tend to make it big either. Finally, not every actor has the ambition to seek out fame or lots of projects. You can't say that Tom Welling's career has been negatively affected, if you don't know what he's tried and either succeeded or failed at doing. You don't know the parts he didn't get, for example. You don't know if he didn't feel like acting for awhile because he was going through a difficult divorce or struggling with what it meant to give up playing a character he grew up with for 10 years. You just don't know.

    In short, you're making a lot of unfair and illogical assumptions.
    I agree with this. I would also point out that, not that it's relevant, but Welling did not appear nude in The Fog. He had a body double. His co-star did as well. That shower scene was filmed from the waist up and the rest of the shots were all body doubles. I remember this distinctly because when the movie came out several publications commented on it because Welling had a nudity clause in his contract.

    Tom literally appeared more nude on Smallville itself than he did in that movie. In fact, his body was so exploited over the years that there were some seasons where it genuinely made me feel uncomfortable for him. There were several scenes in the middle of the series where he was stripped down to his underwear seemingly for no reason and, as I understand, he was uncomfortable with that too. In the later seasons, he appeared semi-nude with Erica Durance but the context of those scenes were actual love scenes and I found them to be extremely tasteful. It's just strange to me to shame him for a love scene in The Fog when, to be quite frank, he was involved in more explicit scenes on Smallville. People are trying to paint him as not being willing to do what was needed for a role and it's absurd on a number of levels because Clark Kent is not just about wearing a Superman suit. Clark Kent is a fully rounded, complex character and to play him fully and completely, Tom was asked to do many things....sometimes uncomfortable things. And he certainly committed completely to any and all love scenes with the actress playing Lois so I'm not sure why what he did in a film is even a part of this conversation when he went above and beyond on Smallville for the love story that THEY were telling there and that was vital to the narrative in the final seasons.

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