View Poll Results: Detective Comics or Batman, Which Book Do You Like More?

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  • Batman

    39 53.42%
  • Detective Comics

    34 46.58%
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  1. #61
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Indeed. Bruce doesn't need to star in as many books as he does, but Detective should always be his along with Batman. They can resurrect the "Batman Family" title from the 70s and slap it on the team book and let it be its own thing. Bruce doesn't even need to be in it.
    I wonder if that would sell as well then using the 'Tec name though.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    How well do you think the current Batgirl mentoring Steph and Cass would go over with their fanbase.
    If they would finally bring back the more mature pre Brunside Barbara, that wouldn't be a problem imo. The fans don't seem to have much of a problem with Kate mentoring Steph and Cass. And I think most fans also liked it when Steph and Haper appeared in Batgirl pre rebirth.

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    JPV was and is still more mainstream than Cass ever was.
    More people unquestionably know of/ have read the entire Knightfall storyilne (Talking about all three parts) than Cass. But JPV himself? Obviously he has fans, I'm one myself, but Cass's fanbase is much larger.
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  4. #64
    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    I haven't jumped into the Rebirth yet but it sounds like each of these books are very distinct. Sounds great.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    JPV was and is still more mainstream than Cass ever was.
    I doubt that. The meat of the story is Bruce vs. Bane. I think he got left out of The Dark Knight Rises for a reason, and he wasn't mentioned as being present for the Arkham Asylum version of it either. He was also lifted out of the NML novel Rucka wrote and you wouldn't even notice a difference, yet Cass got focus.

    He's definitely dead weight compared to most other members of the franchise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wonder if that would sell as well then using the 'Tec name though.
    It might be a better test to see how well these characters can generate sales. I imagine there are some buyers who are buying it because of the title.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Kate was definitely fringe before rebirth.
    In what sense?
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  7. #67
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I doubt that. The meat of the story is Bruce vs. Bane. I think he got left out of The Dark Knight Rises for a reason, and he wasn't mentioned as being present for the Arkham Asylum version of it either. He was also lifted out of the NML novel Rucka wrote and you wouldn't even notice a difference, yet Cass got focus.

    He's definitely dead weight compared to most other members of the franchise.
    The meat of the story is proving why Bruce Wayne is Batman. Bane was the first part of that journey, but Jean Paul Valley as Batman was the core of it.

    Bruce wasn't even the one who beat Bane in that story.

    Azrael was probably left out of the The Dark Knight Rises because it wasn't meant to really be a Knightfall adaption. I don't remember Talia working with Bane in Knightfall

    It might be a better test to see how well these characters can generate sales. I imagine there are some buyers who are buying it because of the title.
    But isn't 'Tec selling better now then it was in the New 52? Though I guess it helps that it isn't playing musical chairs with creative teams.

  8. #68
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    TEC is a book that either requires a good creative team or an engaging change-up from the Batman solo. It either needs a Paul Dini instead of a Tony Daniel, or an ensemble instead of loner Batman.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    In what sense?
    I the sense that she hardly interacted with the rest of the Batfamily (especially not apart from crimefighting) and had at best cameos in the Batfamily stories.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The meat of the story is proving why Bruce Wayne is Batman. Bane was the first part of that journey, but Jean Paul Valley as Batman was the core of it.

    Bruce wasn't even the one who beat Bane in that story.

    Azrael was probably left out of the The Dark Knight Rises because it wasn't meant to really be a Knightfall adaption. I don't remember Talia working with Bane in Knightfall
    It's probably my own biases talking, but I always felt that Jean Paul taking out Bane was sort of an anti-climax. Bruce vs. Bane round 2 didn't even happen in the Knightfall saga, it happened later on and wasn't talked about as much, because Azrael had already proven Bane could be beaten.

    TDKR is pretty much a Knightfall adaptation, or as close to one we have gotten as a film so far. It was hyped pretty much because of the reputation of the story it was drawing from: Bane was the antagonist (seemingly) and he was gonna break Bruce's back. It was Knightfall in all but name, just with the filler taken out and its own additions created.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But isn't 'Tec selling better now then it was in the New 52? Though I guess it helps that it isn't playing musical chairs with creative teams.
    That might be playing a factor as well. It's hard to know for certain, we pretty much have two books in one (Bruce's long lasting Detective book and a team book with the fan favorite 90s characters). Who knows how it would compare sales wise to either of those components on their own?
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 08-13-2017 at 10:16 AM.

  11. #71
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    You'll notice that NO DC ongoing book comes close to Batman. Far behind in sales as it is, 'Tec is still DC's 3rd highest selling ongoing (2nd once All-Star ends). There are tons of people who probably only read Batman and only because it's Batman. AKA, not the kind of fans who'd be spending time on a forum. (Plus, this forum is still just a rather small sample size)
    I was curious, since just before the n52, Batman wasn't the crazy powerhouse it has been since the n52 started. Now, you could say I'm cheating, because it was being outsold by Batman and Robin and Batman Inc, but the title itself just didn't have the cachet then, I think. (Partly because of Tony Daniel, as godisawesome points out, and Grant Morrison. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Kate was definitely fringe before rebirth.
    Fringe. Um. One of the highest profile arcs by Rucka and Williams, and then a solo that ran for 40 issues? That doesn't seem very fringe, to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    JPV was and is still more mainstream than Cass ever was.
    That's just really confusing to me. Yes, JPV had a solo that ran for 100 issues rather than 73, but Cass was much more integrated into all of the other titles than JPV was post-Knightfall. Plus, I just don't see people as upset about him being killed off, or people hating on Michael Lane because he replaced JPV in the same way people hate on Babs and Steph for replacing Cass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wonder if that would sell as well then using the 'Tec name though.
    No, it wouldn't. And there's still an undercurrent of "Batman books should have Batman solve the problems" and "Detective Comics should be about detecting," but I think Detective Comics should be about Batman's world, since it's the book that started it all, and has the most room for offbeat stories like Elegy or Black Mirror.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    If they would finally bring back the more mature pre Brunside Barbara, that wouldn't be a problem imo. The fans don't seem to have much of a problem with Kate mentoring Steph and Cass. And I think most fans also liked it when Steph and Haper appeared in Batgirl pre rebirth.
    Yup. As I posted above, I thought it was really fun seeing Steph learn stuff and help Babs out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The meat of the story is proving why Bruce Wayne is Batman. Bane was the first part of that journey, but Jean Paul Valley as Batman was the core of it.

    Bruce wasn't even the one who beat Bane in that story.

    Azrael was probably left out of the The Dark Knight Rises because it wasn't meant to really be a Knightfall adaption. I don't remember Talia working with Bane in Knightfall

    But isn't 'Tec selling better now then it was in the New 52? Though I guess it helps that it isn't playing musical chairs with creative teams.
    I agree that Azrael was the heart of Knightfall, but I think in a way that's really kind of dated and stuck in the specific era of Batman that he showed up in.

    Haven't checked Tec's sales numbers and done a crunch with the n52 run, but I think they're pretty close to each other, if you count issue number and not months.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    TEC is a book that either requires a good creative team or an engaging change-up from the Batman solo. It either needs a Paul Dini instead of a Tony Daniel, or an ensemble instead of loner Batman.
    Well said. Ugh, those Daniel issues. I really, really wish that they would pair artists who want to be writers with experienced writers or stronger editors.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Fringe. Um. One of the highest profile arcs by Rucka and Williams, and then a solo that ran for 40 issues? That doesn't seem very fringe, to me.
    Thats not about how succsessfull o popular she was but about her relation with the rest of the Batfamily, which was pretty much non existing during that time.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wonder if that would sell as well then using the 'Tec name though.
    Probably not. Just the name 'Detective Comics' pulls readers in.
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  14. #74
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's probably my own biases talking, but I always felt that Jean Paul taking out Bane was sort of an anti-climax. Bruce vs. Bane round 2 didn't even happen in the Knightfall saga, it happened later on and wasn't talked about as much, because Azrael had already proven Bane could be beaten.
    I guess that's fair, though we still got to see Bruce decisively beat AzBats on both a physical and symbolic level, which I thought was fairly climactic, but that's just me.

    TDKR is pretty much a Knightfall adaptation, or as close to one we have gotten as a film so far. It was hyped pretty much because of the reputation of the story it was drawing from: Bane was the antagonist (seemingly) and he was gonna break Bruce's back. It was Knightfall in all but name, just with the filler taken out and its own additions created.
    Well, I guess it's as much an adaption as Batman v. Superman was an adaption of Death of Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    No, it wouldn't. And there's still an undercurrent of "Batman books should have Batman solve the problems" and "Detective Comics should be about detecting," but I think Detective Comics should be about Batman's world, since it's the book that started it all, and has the most room for offbeat stories like Elegy or Black Mirror.
    Maybe 'Tec's constantly shifting directions is just a consequence of the fact that fans want so many different things from Batman, whether it be the World's Greatest Detective, the Batfamily, team-ups, or exploring Batman's world and supporting cast.

    I agree that Azrael was the heart of Knightfall, but I think in a way that's really kind of dated and stuck in the specific era of Batman that he showed up in.
    I'm not sure if it's dated so much as it's a story that really requires the proper context to be told well.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Thats not about how succsessfull o popular she was but about her relation with the rest of the Batfamily, which was pretty much non existing during that time.
    Ah. I see. Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm not sure if it's dated so much as it's a story that really requires the proper context to be told well.
    That just seems like a nice way of saying "dated," though.
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