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  1. #31
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The crossovers got in the way, but to me even those didn't really hurt the quality of the content of the books that much. He and Kuder always managed to make the most out of the crossovers. Would've been so much better had they not been hampered by it, but even when handed lemons they made something worthwhile. The so-called "taint" isn't that great to me. The crossovers were an irritant more than anything else, not the mythos-killing scourge some make it out to be.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-12-2017 at 12:49 PM.
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  2. #32
    Heavy Vinyl Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Well its a damn shame it was part of a shit crossover that gutted the Superman franchise. Pak had some strong moments and a decent arc or two but its tainted by turd.

    If you can invent a device that can separate the good from the bad then by all means do it but for now I cant read that instance without subjecting myself to Truth and I HAVE NO intention of doing that ever.
    Technically, the crossover didn't start till Savage Dawn.

    Truth was initially a plot development, and a change in direction, like Superheavy was for Batman.

    You could read Pak's Action all the way through until Savage Dawn, without having to read any of the other Super books. Just like you could read Superheavy in Batman, and not be concerned about Gordon appearing as Batman in other books.

    The Wraith arc is all in Action Comics, which is where the scene The World is referencing is from.
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  3. #33
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    Superheavy was Snyder's brainchild. Like it or hate it but he was telling HIS story. Truth was someone elses (editor) story borne out of a need to make Superman hip and cool and relatable and just change him for the heck of it.

    Pak started his run with someone elses story and he ended it writing someone elses story. An entire run loaded with poor crossovers and controversial ideas that are already dated( look at Superdoom and thugman) does not equal some great run. 2 good solo arcs hardly form the basis of some GOAT run claims.Like Fishyzombie said its rep is exagerrated by Nuperman fans who dont have anything other than Morrison when it comes to recommendations so they shill Pak.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Superheavy was Snyder's brainchild. Like it or hate it but he was telling HIS story. Truth was someone elses (editor) story borne out of a need to make Superman hip and cool and relatable and just change him for the heck of it.
    'Truth' was developed by everyone involved in the Super line at the time.

    I'm not sure if we know who developed most of the pitch, but it wasn't something Pak or Kuder were against. Before his run began, Pak talked about how much he liked the T-Shirt and jeans era of Superman. So I'd guess he had some say in a Superman story line where he was back in casual clothes and depowered.

    'Truth' was also developed as a response to the success Batgirl was seeing at the time with the Burnside run. Creators were asked to pitch more experimental, status-quo defying stories they wanted to tell, and that is what led to the first few issue of 'Truth'.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Pak started his run with someone elses story and he ended it writing someone elses story. An entire run loaded with poor crossovers and controversial ideas that are already dated( look at Superdoom and thugman) does not equal some great run. 2 good solo arcs hardly form the basis of some GOAT run claims.Like Fishyzombie said its rep is exagerrated by Nuperman fans who dont have anything other than Morrison when it comes to recommendations so they shill Pak.
    I'm not trying to change your mind about what you think of Pak's run. I never said anything about how good it was in my reply. I didn't comment on its quality at all.

    I was pointing out that you could read the story The World cited, without going outside of the core book. That story wasn't part of a crossover, the crossover began after that story.
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  5. #35
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Its always some sort of conspiracy theory. Why can it not just be that we like something because we like it? If something is liked that happens to be from the New 52 era, there's some other agenda involved. Its beyond ridiculous and annoying at this point. I don't love and recommend Pak's run because I need something to "shill". That's freaking stupid and juvenile. I like it and praise it when it comes up it because I think its really good. Period, end of story, no other reason.

    Back to the topic at hand though, for anyone reading any GL books, is there any precedent for this tiny Parallax? I thought Parallax was pretty huge when in its natural state without a host. All I have to go on is GL Rebirth though which is quite old.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-12-2017 at 10:28 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    'Truth' was developed by everyone involved in the Super line at the time.

    I'm not sure if we know who developed most of the pitch, but it wasn't something Pak or Kuder were against. Before his run began, Pak talked about how much he liked the T-Shirt and jeans era of Superman. So I'd guess he had some say in a Superman story line where he was back in casual clothes and depowered.

    'Truth' was also developed as a response to the success Batgirl was seeing at the time with the Burnside run. Creators were asked to pitch more experimental, status-quo defying stories they wanted to tell, and that is what led to the first few issue of 'Truth'.



    I'm not trying to change your mind about what you think of Pak's run. I never said anything about how good it was in my reply. I didn't comment on its quality at all.

    I was pointing out that you could read the story The World cited, without going outside of the core book. That story wasn't part of a crossover, the crossover began after that story.
    Then that only means Pak was responsible for that trainwreck. There were books that came as part of the Batgirling trend like Gotham Academy but those are liked well enough. Superheavy did its own thing. I guess ypu could say Truth was like NML or Knightfall but obviously a lot worse. Doesn't change the fact that Pak was trapped in that dismal situation. Its a knock against his run. Imagine going from Horrorville to Truth, its absolutely jarring and doesn't work without Yang's Superman. You cant read read 16 issues of Pak's Action without following something else. He's got 11 issues of his own,2 stories basically. 2 stories and crossover fodder doesn't really entitle that run to anything.

  7. #37
    Incredible Member Agniwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Then that only means Pak was responsible for that trainwreck. There were books that came as part of the Batgirling trend like Gotham Academy but those are liked well enough. Superheavy did its own thing. I guess ypu could say Truth was like NML or Knightfall but obviously a lot worse. Doesn't change the fact that Pak was trapped in that dismal situation. Its a knock against his run. Imagine going from Horrorville to Truth, its absolutely jarring and doesn't work without Yang's Superman. You cant read read 16 issues of Pak's Action without following something else. He's got 11 issues of his own,2 stories basically. 2 stories and crossover fodder doesn't really entitle that run to anything.
    well maybe if the n52 were allowed to exist on his own without being swallowed whole and erased by rebirth who knows? it ended being one of those things that if never happened then there is no point to it

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Then that only means Pak was responsible for that trainwreck. There were books that came as part of the Batgirling trend like Gotham Academy but those are liked well enough. Superheavy did its own thing. I guess ypu could say Truth was like NML or Knightfall but obviously a lot worse. Doesn't change the fact that Pak was trapped in that dismal situation. Its a knock against his run. Imagine going from Horrorville to Truth, its absolutely jarring and doesn't work without Yang's Superman. You cant read read 16 issues of Pak's Action without following something else. He's got 11 issues of his own,2 stories basically. 2 stories and crossover fodder doesn't really entitle that run to anything.
    You can read the story The World cited, without reading any other books. That story wasn't part of a crossover.

    The crossover started afterwards.

    You said it was part of a crossover. It wasn't.

    I'm not commenting on the quality of the story, just stating the facts.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    You can read the story The World cited, without reading any other books. That story wasn't part of a crossover.

    The crossover started afterwards.

    You said it was part of a crossover. It wasn't.

    I'm not commenting on the quality of the story, just stating the facts.
    You can pick any random comic and read it.

    It was part of the crossover, they divided it so that Superman was set in the past while Action was set in the present. Those last 10 issues of Action dont work without Yang's Superman( and Batman/Superman and Superman/Wonder Woman) if you're a serious collector. Ofcourse if you're not then like I said you could just pick up any random comic from any random company with any random character on the basis of a flashy cover to mere boredom, read the comic, like a moment or two and then forget about it with in the hour. That's pretty much your basic defense for someone elses post.

    As a RUN Pak's work falls woefully short, that's what I'm arguing for. You're just caught up defending one moment.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agniwolf View Post
    well maybe if the n52 were allowed to exist on his own without being swallowed whole and erased by rebirth who knows? it ended being one of those things that if never happened then there is no point to it
    New 52 was allowed to exist for 5 years, it was swallowed by its own crappiness.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    You can pick any random comic and read it.

    It was part of the crossover, they divided it so that Superman was set in the past while Action was set in the present. Those last 10 issues of Action dont work without Yang's Superman( and Batman/Superman and Superman/Wonder Woman) if you're a serious collector. Ofcourse if you're not then like I said you could just pick up any random comic from any random company with any random character on the basis of a flashy cover to mere boredom, read the comic, like a moment or two and then forget about it with in the hour. That's pretty much your basic defense for someone elses post.

    As a RUN Pak's work falls woefully short, that's what I'm arguing for. You're just caught up defending one moment.
    It literally wasn't part of a crossover.

    You read Action Comics 41, then you read 42, then 43, and onwards. You don't have to pick up any other book for the next phase of the story in an issue of Action until Savage Dawn starts.

    Doomed was a crossover because you had to go from one book to another. H'el on Earth was a crossover because you had to go from one book to another. Savage Dawn was a crossover because you had to go from one book to another.

    The Wraith arc wasn't. It isn't anymore a crossover than the recent Revenge arc is with Reborn.

    Would you have to read Reborn to understand every little detail as to what happened that caused changes in continuity that play out in the Revenge arc? Sure. Do you actually need to read Reborn for the Revenge arc? No.

    That story goes on to function by itself.

    If you don't like the Reborn/Revenge example, then go with Reborn and the issue of Trinity. The event of Trinity #8 are predicated on Reborn, the issue was even solicited as a Reborn tie-in.

    But Trinity wasn't part of the Reborn crossover.

    I'm not defending anything, just pointing out a fact.

    You can continue saying it was awful, that the story fails because the events that led to the changed status quo happened in another book, and whatever other complaints you have. But it literally wasn't a crossover is what I'm saying.
    Last edited by Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever; 08-12-2017 at 11:48 PM.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    It literally wasn't part of a crossover.

    You read Action Comics 41, then you read 42, then 43, and onwards. You don't have to pick up any other book for the next phase of the story in an issue of Action until Savage Dawn starts.

    Doomed was a crossover because you had to go from one book to another. H'el on Earth was a crossover because you had to go from one book to another. Savage Dawn was a crossover because you had to go from one book to another.

    The Wraith arc wasn't. It isn't anymore a crossover than the recent Revenge arc is with Reborn.

    Would you have to read Reborn to understand every little detail as to what happened that caused changes in continuity that play out in the Revenge arc? Sure. Do you actually need to read Reborn for the Revenge arc? No.

    That story goes on to function by itself.

    I'm not defending anything, just pointing out a fact.

    You can continue saying it was awful, that the story fails because the events that led to the changed status quo happened in another book, and whatever other complaints you have. But it literally wasn't a crossover is what I'm saying.
    Its a crossover in the same manner NML was a crossover, it ushers in a new status quo that all books are forced to play with. Either way you cant move from Horrorville(ignoring the Bizarro one shot) to that arc of Action without going WTF. If you just read Pak's Action and Pak's Action alone then that run will not make a lick of sense.

    Reborn tells one story, Revenge tells another story entirely. Savage Dawn and Truth are part of one larger arc and they're spread over the entire line of Superman books.

    Every issue functions by itself, like I said you can read any comic at any time. I can read full arcs within NML or Knighquest without getting the entire collections but they're still crossovers. They come in different shapes and types.

    You're free to think whatever you want to think. I cannot read that arc after reading Horrorville and not wonder WTH just happened and I cant finish that run without getting trapped in Savage Dawn which is a proper crossover.

    For example I can read Gleason's Robin: Son of Batman without reading Superheavy. It tells a complete story for Damian, anyone interested in the details of what happened to Bruce can just pick up Snyder's Batman. This doesn't apply to Pak's Action, therefore making it a crossover book, that arc was just one piece in a puzzle.

  13. #43
    Stuck in Limbo Red obin's Avatar
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    This previews seems to be more fitting of Action comic's current run then superman.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Its a crossover in the same manner NML was a crossover, it ushers in a new status quo that all books are forced to play with. Either way you cant move from Horrorville(ignoring the Bizarro one shot) to that arc of Action without going WTF. If you just read Pak's Action and Pak's Action alone then that run will not make a lick of sense.

    Reborn tells one story, Revenge tells another story entirely. Savage Dawn and Truth are part of one larger arc and they're spread over the entire line of Superman books.

    Every issue functions by itself, like I said you can read any comic at any time. I can read full arcs within NML or Knighquest without getting the entire collections but they're still crossovers. They come in different shapes and types.

    You're free to think whatever you want to think. I cannot read that arc after reading Horrorville and not wonder WTH just happened and I cant finish that run without getting trapped in Savage Dawn which is a proper crossover.

    For example I can read Gleason's Robin: Son of Batman without reading Superheavy. It tells a complete story for Damian, anyone interested in the details of what happened to Bruce can just pick up Snyder's Batman. This doesn't apply to Pak's Action, therefore making it a crossover book, that arc was just one piece in a puzzle.
    No Man's Land directly crossed over with other Bat books. At the end of the issue of one book, it would say the story continued in another.

    For example, Batman #563 ends saying the story concludes in Detective Comics #730. It functioned like the other crossovers I mentioned, going from book to book. It was like that from the very beginning.

    While not all the books involved crossed over, it was there from the start.

    That is not how the Wrath arc functioned. You went from one issue of Action, to the next issue of Action. For first portion of Truth, none of the books crossed over.

    You seem to be under the impression that I'm saying it wasn't a crossover as some sort of defense of its cohesiveness. Not the case at all.

    I am not challenging any of your criticism. You think its jarring to go from Horrorville to Truth? You think the run overall is trapped in crossovers? You think the Action arc feels incomplete without Yang's Before Truth? I have said nothing about any of that.

    But the instance The World cited, the arc where its from. It was not part of a crossover. That story is Action Comics #41 to #47.

    It then leads to Savage Dawn, along with all the other books, and that is when the crossover starts.

    Up until then, there was a change in direction, and a change in the status quo, but it wasn't a crossover.
    Last edited by Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever; 08-13-2017 at 12:24 AM.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    No Man's Land directly crossed over with other Bat books. At the end of the issue of one book, it would say the story continued in another.

    For example, Batman #563 ends saying the story concludes in Detective Comics #730. It functioned like the other crossovers I mentioned, going from book to book. It was like that from the very beginning.

    While not all the books involved crossed over, it was there from the start.

    That is not how the Wrath arc functioned. You went from one issue of Action, to the next issue of Action. For first portion of Truth, none of the books crossed over.

    You seem to be under the impression that I'm saying it wasn't a crossover as some sort of defense of its cohesiveness. Not the case at all.

    I am not challenging any of your criticism. You think its jarring to go from Horrorville to Truth? You think the run overall is trapped in crossovers? I have said nothing about any of that.

    But the instance The World cited, the arc where its from. It was not part of a crossover. That story is Action Comics #41 to #47.

    It then leads to Savage Dawn, along with all the other books, and that is when the crossover starts.

    Up until then, there was a change in direction, and a change in the status quo, but it wasn't a crossover.
    And my argument was about the entire nature of Pak's run, not one specific moment. As a whole the Pak run is saddled by terrible crossovers, if you cant read 16 issues of a 27 issue run without following other books then its not much of a run.

    The change in direction and status quo wasn't in line with what Pak had been writing. It wasn't something that came from Pak himself, its not like say the transition from R.I.P to Batman & Robin during the Morrison era.

    So coming back to the point, its asinine to recommend that one moment from Pak's run knowing that if you keep reading that story you'll get sucked in to a crossover and if you were reading before that you'll be left scratching your head at the transition. That's not the mark of a good run, is what I was saying.

    You cant claim someone is a great Superman writer because they wrote one moment.

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