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  1. #1
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Default The Post-COIE era and the New 52 era: the first five years compared

    When the New 52 arrived in 2011, it radically altered the DC Universe, discarding much of what had come before. This much is not in dispute, but some would argue that such an alteration was unprecedented. It wasn’t.

    In 1985-1986, DC performed its first major overhaul of its continuity in the aftermath of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS (COIE). In the first five years after the publication of COIE, major changes occurred either directly, or through the domino effect, and touched nearly every DC character and franchise to varying degrees. Though decades later, some of these changes were partially or entirely reversed, through the first five years, they appeared as irrevocable and indelible as any changes made by the New 52.

    Six years after the New 52 premiered, the concept seems to have run its course and with the REBIRTH initiative, DC looks poised to largely return to its Pre-FLASHPOINT configuration and norms. The first five years of both the Post-COIE era and the New 52 era, therefore, were roughly comparable in the degree to which they discarded what had come before them.


    SUPERMAN FRANCHISE

    Superman

    1. Loss of Superboy career, including early friendship with young Lex Luthor in Smallville and involvement with Legion of Superheroes.

    2. Kents remain alive through Clark’s adulthood

    3. Superpets eliminated

    4. Power levels greatly reduced.

    5. No longer founding member of Justice League.

    6. Different relationship with Batman (no longer best friends; wary allies).

    7. Different characterizations of Clark Kent and Lois Lane

    8. Loss of Earth-Two means no Golden Age Superman (including Justice Society affiliation)

    9. Kal-El no longer the first superhero to appear on Earth.

    10. Characterization of Lex Luthor entirely different from Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age characterizations.

    Supergirl

    1. Original Kara Zor-El no longer exists, affecting Superman and LSH.

    Power Girl

    1. No longer a Kryptonian, but an Atlantean.

    BATMAN FRANCHISE

    Batman

    1. Bruce Wayne raised by Alfred after his parents’ death, whereas Alfred entered Bruce’s service after Bruce was an adult and had become Batman (and even taken Dick Grayson on as Robin).

    2. Perhaps as a consequence, Batman never had a relatively lighthearted period as a crimefighter (as portrayed in various Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age comics).
    The post-Miller interpretation became the ONLY interpretation.

    3. The previous point renders it impossible or at least highly unlikely for numerous Silver and Bronze Age stories to have occurred as they were originally published.

    4. As was case with Superman, early involvement in Justice League eliminated (affecting early history of Justice League).

    5. Relationship with Superman clearly different from Pre-COIE (both Earth-One and Earth-Two).

    6. Loss of Earth-Two eliminates Golden Age Batman history, including Justice Society affiliation and the original Huntress (Helena Wayne) and Golden Age
    Robin.

    Robin/Nightwing

    1. Circumstances of Dick’s transition from Robin to Nightwing completely overhauled.

    2. Ditto the origin of Jason Todd. This move might have even literally cost Jason his life.

    Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

    1. No longer the biological daughter of Jim Gordon.

    2. Much younger than Pre-COIE

    3. Stories she shared with Supergirl during the Bronze Age are now retroactively given to Power Girl.

    4. Period as U.S. Senator likely retconned out.

    Huntress (Helena Bertinelli)

    1. A completely different character than the Earth-2 version, she has no blood ties to the Wayne family (unlike the original).

    James Gordon

    1. Once a widower, his marriage to Barbara Kean now ends due to divorce.

    WONDER WOMAN FRANCHISE

    Wonder Woman

    1. Debut moved forward to LEGENDS era, eliminating Wonder Woman’s entire Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age histories, most egregiously her involvement in the Justice Society and Justice League.

    2. Elimination of Diana Prince identity.

    3. Elimination of Steve Trevor romance.

    Wonder Girl/Donna Troy

    1. Most notoriously, the changes to Diana became an utter catastrophe for Donna.

    FLASH FRANCHISE

    Barry Allen

    1. Died during COIE and wouldn’t be seen again (aside from flashback stories) until the next century.

    2. With the destruction of the original Multiverse, he is not the original Flash on his homeworld anymore.

    3. First meeting with Jay Garrick, Barry’s hero and inspiration, was significant because Barry grew up reading about Jay in comic books as a fictional character. Additionally, the first meeting between Barry and Jay was historic and momentous largely because it was the discovery of the DC Multiverse. Collapsing their worlds into one diminishes the significance of this event and alters the nature of Jay’s role in Barry’s inspiration.

    Wally West

    1. His personality changed from one very similar to his predecessor to now less serious, more fun loving, and skirt chasing.

    2. Would have been the second Flash on Earth-1, but is now the third on New Earth.

    Jay Garrick

    1. After The Last Days of the Justice Society in 1986, the Golden Age Flash and his wife Joan weren't seen again until the following decade.

    2. The original Flash solely on Earth-2, he now is the first among all of the speedsters.

    GREEN LANTERN FRANCHISE

    Hal Jordan

    1. He becomes a legacy character.

    2. EMERALD DAWN becomes Hal’s new origin story, convoluting and contradicting his straightforward Silver Age origin and altering his characterization.

    Guy Gardner

    1. Drastic personality change, though potentially could have occurred pre-COIE.

    2. The second GL on Earth-1, he is now #3.

    John Stewart

    1. The third GL on Earth-1, he is now #4.


    Alan Scott

    1. Like many of his JSA brethren, he is in limbo for this period.

    2. Earth-2 origins retconned out.

    HAWKMAN FRANCHISE (a continuity mess)

    Carter Hall (Golden Age)

    1. For about a year, he coexisted with Silver Age Hawkman on the same Earth (which made zero sense, because it was silly to have two Carters originating from the same universe with same codename, similar Earth occupations, name of wife, etc.). Eventually, he was shelved with many of the JSA for this period.

    2. The first Hawkman strictly on Earth-1, he is the first among all of them on New Earth.

    Katar Hol (Silver Age)

    1. The first Hawkman on Earth-1, he is now #2 on New Earth.

    2. By the late ‘80s, a new origin was created for him in which he’s never known as Carter Hall and isn’t married to Shayera.

    MARTIAN MANHUNTER

    1. Never had a fixation on Oreos pre-COIE. :-)

    2. New origin for J’onn in 1988 stated Dr. Erdel never died and his humanoid form was created due to personal trauma caused by the death of his race.

    SHAZAM/CAPTAIN MARVEL FRANCHISE

    Billy Batson

    1. Unlike pre-COIE and even during the early part of the DCU, Billy would retain his youthful personality in his adult form starting in 1988.

    2. On Pre-COIE Earth-S, Captain Marvel was, undisputably, the World’s Mightiest Mortal and greatest hero. Post-COIE, he takes a backseat to not only Superman, but possibly also Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and a host of others.

    3. The Marvels' Golden Age and Bronze Age history lost.

    4. The Marvel Family (including Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel, Jr., Talking Tawny, the Lieutenant Marvels, and Hoppy the Marvel Bunny) didn’t exist during this time.

    GREEN ARROW FRANCHISE

    Oliver Queen (Earth-2)

    1. The Golden Age GA and Speedy were retconned out of existence after COIE.

    Oliver Queen (Earth-1)

    1. Ollie kills people now.

    2. The trick arrows disappear.

    3. He wasn’t referred to as Green Arrow anymore in his own magazine.

    4. He’s middle-aged now, instead of being in his late ‘20s as he was pre-COIE.

    BLACK CANARY FRANCHISE

    Dinah Drake Lance

    1. Only the first Canary on Earth-2, she is now the first on New Earth.

    Dinah Laurel Lance

    1. Given a new origin, her mother’s memories were never transferred to her body or was she ever placed in suspended animation by Thunderbolt.

    2. She gets her Canary Cry differently now, too.

    3. Unlike the Bronze Age, Dinah is now considerably younger than Oliver Queen.

    AQUAMAN FRANCHISE

    Aquaman (Orin/Arthur Curry)

    1. Golden Age history eliminated

    2. History with Garth (Aqualad) likely not as characterized in Golden or Silver Age.

    JUSTICE LEAGUE FRANCHISE

    1. Founding Seven are reduced to Founding Five, with none of the Trinity, but adding Black Canary.

    2. Annual CRISIS team ups with Justice Society and other superhero teams no longer feature the Multiverse angle, which alters those stories considerably.

    ATOM FRANCHISE

    Al Pratt

    1. Nowhere to be seen after 1986.

    SANDMAN

    Wesley Dodds

    1. In limbo fighting Ragnarok again and again and again...

    This information is presently incomplete. More will follow at some point.


    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Last edited by Buried Alien; 08-13-2017 at 03:53 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post

    Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

    2. Much younger than Pre-COIE

    4. Period as U.S. Senator likely retconned out.
    Her Time as Congresswoman was still mentioned in her pre crisis Secret Origin issue and in the Timeline in the Nightwing Year One TPB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    James Gordon

    1. Once a widower, his marriage to Barbara Kean now ends due to divorce.
    The status of his wife was allways a little unclear, she was clearly shown to be alive in a Golden Age Story, I think it was said that she was dead in a Bronze Age story but there is no story about it and Batman Annual #13 (post crisis and even post TKJ and DitF) has also iirc also a reference to the death of his wife.

  3. #3
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Her Time as Congresswoman was still mentioned in her pre crisis Secret Origin issue and in the Timeline in the Nightwing Year One TPB.
    Which makes no sense Post-COIE, since she wouldn't have been old enough to have had the position in the first place. She couldn't have been more than 4 years younger than Bruce during the Bronze Age.

    The status of his wife was allways a little unclear, she was clearly shown to be alive in a Golden Age Story, I think it was said that she was dead in a Bronze Age story but there is no story about it and Batman Annual #13 (post crisis and even post TKJ and DitF) has also iirc also a reference to the death of his wife.
    I believe the only time I saw her name in print was an imaginary story in which Clark Kent becomes Superman in Gotham and was the adopted son of the Waynes.
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    Fantastic Member TheSupernaut's Avatar
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    Default

    This thread has a lot of potential.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Terrific breakdown, Buried Allen.

    Great idea for a thread too, and I forgot about how Supergirl's absence really has a big impact on not only the Superman mythos, but Batgirl as well. Retroactively giving the stories to Power Girl, as if they were the same thing, really seems silly. As does Barbara not being Gordon's biological daughter but being so close that they might as well be. It was always one of the most baffling changes that served no purpose other than to make something simple into something needlessly complicated.

  6. #6
    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    Great stuff. Can't wait until you post more and some conversations/arguments get started. Should be a lot of fun.

  7. #7
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSupernaut View Post
    This thread has a lot of potential.
    Indeed. If anybody has something they would like to add or they want to debate something listed here, feel free to do so.
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    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    I think if there's one thing everyone can agree on, Hawkman was a mess after crisis hahaha

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    I think if there's one thing everyone can agree on, Hawkman was a mess after crisis hahaha
    Almost everyone became one after Crisis, but yeah Hawkamn was the worst. I don't know how making one character with one history could become more confusing than two different sets of sort of identical characters on two Earths, but they somehow managed it.

    The Crisis was designed to make things simpler, but looking at things in hindsight, I can't see how the DC Universe made less sense beforehand.

  10. #10
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    I'm pretty happy with the state of the current DCU. However, I do miss some things a lot like the LOSH, JSA, Earth 2 Superman, Kon-El, Wally having his own book and the multiverse.
    I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.---Daredevil

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    I think if there's one thing everyone can agree on, Hawkman was a mess after crisis hahaha
    The sad thing was that it didn't need to be. The Hawkworld mini and series that had him arriving on Earth could have been set in the past, allowing him to retain his connection with the JLA. But the powers that be dictated those stories happen in the present, causing so many continuity issues that had to be explained in increasingly convoluted ways.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Almost everyone became one after Crisis, but yeah Hawkamn was the worst. I don't know how making one character with one history could become more confusing than two different sets of sort of identical characters on two Earths, but they somehow managed it.

    The Crisis was designed to make things simpler, but looking at things in hindsight, I can't see how the DC Universe made less sense beforehand.
    They could have kept it simple though.The Man of Steel mini was set in the past and explained his new status quo so that he was an experienced hero in his regular titles. The problems with Wonder Woman and Hawkman could have been avoided if they did the same. Green Lantern, Flash, Batman, and Teen Titans had few changes. Legion of Super Heroes would need updating to remove Superman and Supergirl from continuity.

    I thought putting all the heroes on one Earth worked, since we got to see the Charlton and Captain Marvel characters interact with the regular DC characters.

    Overall, I liked the Post Crisis set up, but it could have gone much smoother if they had planned it out ahead of time with all the writers and editors kept in the loop for the changes.

  13. #13

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    This is a very nice breakdown. I honestly feel COIE caused longterm damage to the DCU and Flashpoint was kind of the redux of that, haha.

    I don't know how much history Rebirth is going to bring back, but we are at least seeing Barry Allen reclaiming some of his pre-Crisis Earth-1 history in the current Flash story arc. Maybe there is a chance we might get the classic multiverse back? (One can hope)

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    They could have kept it simple though.The Man of Steel mini was set in the past and explained his new status quo so that he was an experienced hero in his regular titles. The problems with Wonder Woman and Hawkman could have been avoided if they did the same. Green Lantern, Flash, Batman, and Teen Titans had few changes. Legion of Super Heroes would need updating to remove Superman and Supergirl from continuity.

    I thought putting all the heroes on one Earth worked, since we got to see the Charlton and Captain Marvel characters interact with the regular DC characters.

    Overall, I liked the Post Crisis set up, but it could have gone much smoother if they had planned it out ahead of time with all the writers and editors kept in the loop for the changes.
    Wonder Woman being set in the past would have helped tremendously, especially in regards to Donna. The timeline is what really screwed up the latter. Wonder Woman may have been the character who needed something like the Crisis the most, as the majority of her Silver and Bronze stories were either terrible or mediocre, and she had gone through several semi-reboots up until that point already. However, had they rebooted her, they should still have taken more care than they did. They could have retold her past and made everything more consistent, as well as making the Greek characters more true to the myths they came from, but the basic set up should probably have remained the same: Amazons with advanced technology, blonde Hippolyta, Diana living in D.C with a young Steve as her love interest, etc. That way the pre-Crisis Titans stories still made sense, Diana would just have shed the forgettable stories that weren't impacting anything anyway; the basics of her lore were fine, they just needed better execution.

    Other than that though, I still think messing with the Legion's history is a mistake. Levitz was in the middle of a popular run at that point, and Supergirl played a part in it, so now aspects of his run stopped making sense halfway through. Kara died in the Crisis anyway, she wasn't around to threaten anything. It's even really unfair for her to have died heroically and then be wiped from existence.

    Captain Marvel doesn't really benefit by being on the same Earth as Superman. They could interact a lot anyway through cross-dimensional jaunts, and both could retain their "Mightiest Hero" title on their own Earths. I just don't see what the point was.

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    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    New 52 Wonder Woman

    > Founding member of the Justice League
    > The daughter of Zeus, not brought to life from a clay poppet
    > Steve Trevor is now a possible love interest again

    Rebirth Wonder Woman

    > Founding member of the Justice League
    > The daughter of Zeus, not brought to life from a clay poppet
    > Steve Trevor is now a love interest again
    Also visit my blog where I expose Wonder Woman for the criminal she is!

    How come these anonymous sources failed to report Zack Snyder had left post-production on Justice League? They seem to know everything now...

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